more help on climbing with a Giant Twist/Lite

[Krow]

Hi again. I'm now a month into my time with the Giant Twist/Lite. I've been very consistent in my commuting and have just over 400 miles on it.

The challenge is still the 7% 1 mile long hill on the way home. I'm not huffing or puffing, but I'm a sweaty mess at the end of that climb. With all my commuting gear, my own bodyweight and the bike (with the heavier NuVinci hub I added) I weigh about 270lbs going up that hill. I'm averaging about 5mph with the motor on full assist.

I regularly get passed by the lycra clad road bike riders, but I pretty much expected that. Today, I was passed by an EZee electric. It might have been a Quando or a Sprint - it went by too quick for me to tell :-( The rider was a young woman who was clearly enjoying the hill a lot more than I was.

Is this what I should be expecting? Am I missing a trick to dialing in a more comfortable riding cadence up these hills?

I'm beginning to wonder if I could do the ride on a regular commuter bike to the same effect. If I went from a 55 lb to a 28 lb bike (a comparably geared commute-ready bike), how much would I really miss the motor's contribution? Put another way, how much of the motor's output is lifting that heavier bike up the long hill?

On the flats I'm already getting a minimal assist from the motor, mostly in getting up to speed. With the wider gear ratio and finer control of the Nuvinci hub, I usually can dial in gearing just above the point the motor contributes on flats. So again, maybe I don't really need the assist if the bike were lighter.

Any suggestions or help with the analysis?

thanks,

keith.

 

[Ian]

Keith,

according do formula freely available on cycling sites, getting your total weight up a 7% grade at 5 mph requires a total power of about 210w. Most average people would be able to contribute about half without undue effort, leaving a mere 105w of power for the motor to put out (disregarding losses in the motor drive).

While I'm not familiar with any of the Giant Twist bikes, all that am familiar with with would easily cope with that so perhaps something is wrong.

By comparison, tackling the same 7% on an unassisted, 28lb lighter bike at the same speed would require the rider to produce 188 watts. At 3.5 mph, which is about as slow as its possible to ride the power required would be 130w which most people could maintain for long periods, albeit getting rather sweaty.

It's interesting that you were passed by another e-bike, we are led to believe that such machines are very rare in the US, so 2 on the same hill must have been a rare event indeed.

Ian.

 

[flecc]

Those eZee bikes will easily outclass one of the Giant Lite bikes on a moderate hill like 7% Keith, in particular with greater speed. Thats especially true of the Quando. The Lite should easily cope with 7%, but a low cadence is needed for the best assistance. How the Nuvinci is relating to that Panasonic motor unit I can't tell, but it may be having an adverse effect.

The standard Lite gearing for the USA's 20 mph market is higher than we have here in 15 mph Europe, so even with a US standard Lite, it wouldn't be as favourably geared for hills.

Since the Lite is a light bike and contributes up to 390 watts of power, I doubt if you'd be better off with an ordinary bike climbing that long hill, unless there is something seriously wrong with the Lite.

I can't see the extra weight of the e-bike making much difference since it's such a small proportion of the total weight of bike and rider, and I can only suggest you try to get in touch with another Giant Lite owner to get a comparison with your bike's performance, possibly by having a chance to ride that other one. That way you'll know if there is something wrong with yours.

There is a known fault that can occur which puts the bike permanently in eco mode, regardless of the setting. You should be able to detect a marked difference between the two modes when hill climbing, if not that could be the problem. One reminder too. When switching on, it's imperative that you don't move the pedals until the red LED goes out. If you don't wait, you can get reduced power thereafter.
.

 

[Krow]

When switching on, it's imperative that you don't move the pedals until the red LED goes out. If you don't wait, you can get reduced power thereafter.

Hey, I must have missed that in the owner's manual (but who RTFM, anyway? ) I tried switching on the controller and waiting for the light to go out. The bike seemed more powerful and responsive. I took it back over to my nemesis hill for a test run. Yesterday, I climbed with lots of effort at about 5mph. This morning, I did the same hill at 7-8mph with less effort. I think we might have a solution!

Unfortunately, it wasn't a perfectly controlled experiment. I refreshed the battery last night and I was attacking the hill with a full charge. I usually see it at the end of my 15 mile commute - with 3-4 bars showing. There might be some voltage sag involved here.

I'll try taking the hill at the end of my commute tomorrow to see how it goes. I may also "reboot" the controller halfway up the hill with the pedals turning to see if that makes the problem return.

Thanks for the tip, Flecc!

keith.

 

[Krow]

It's interesting that you were passed by another e-bike, we are led to believe that such machines are very rare in the US, so 2 on the same hill must have been a rare event indeed.

It was especially interesting because it was the second electric I'd seen that day. There was a Giant Suede earlier in the trip and then the Quando zipping by me on the hill.

In most parts of the US it would be very rare, but we have one of the better Electric Bike stores in the US here in Seattle. I visited Eric's shop today and he's bringing in lots of EZee's for the summer season. He's expecting a container of Fortes soon - I'll have to stop by for a test ride.

keith.

 

[flecc]

I'm glad that helped Keith, it's a point often missed by new owners.

The only other thing as I've mentioned is that cadence should be as low as 40 to get the best assistance. There's a question mark on whether the Nuvinci will be happy with that.

If you find that the Nuvinci works best with a faster cadence (higher linear chain speed), the answer could be to use a smaller rear hub sprocket which will spin the Nuvinci faster at low cadence to fool it that the chain speed is higher. I don't know what sprockets the Nuvinci uses, but hopefully there is a choice.
.

 

[flecc]

who RTFM, anyway? )

Further to my above reply, many tricks have been used over the years to try and get customers to read manuals. One we used to have in a very different business was to open the box for what the customer was buying and show them the contents were all there, ending by pointing to the manual and saying "This is what you read after you've broken it".

That got their attention!

 

[Ian]

Further to my above reply, many tricks have been used over the years to try and get customers to read manuals. One we used to have in a very different business was to open the box for what the customer was buying and show them the contents were all there, ending by pointing to the manual and saying "This is what you read after you've broken it".

That got their attention!

It's a lot worse now that manuals for many products are in electronic format. Many times I tell customers they could have solved the problem by reading the manual, only for them to reply "we didn't get a manual, that's all that came with it" as they point to a CD marked USER GUIDE.

 

[DBCohen]

I hope that e-bikes don't come with an e-manual!

 

[Ian]

Don't worry David, the Ezee bikes come with a paper manual, for the most part properly translated!

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

Manuals?

I hope that e-bikes don't come with an e-manual!

I was rather hoping that they would be supplied with emannuelles!
Peter

 

[flecc]

It's a lot worse now that manuals for many products are in electronic format. Many times I tell customers they could have solved the problem by reading the manual, only for them to reply "we didn't get a manual, that's all that came with it" as they point to a CD marked USER GUIDE.

How right that is Ian, one of the worst outcomes of personal computing, and an abdication of a manufacturer's responsibility. I don't normally favour additional legislation, but would be happy to see consumer law being used in this respect.
.

 

[DBCohen]

How right that is Ian, one of the worst outcomes of personal computing, and an abdication of a manufacturer's responsibility. I don't normally favour additional legislation, but would be happy to see consumer law being used in this respect.
.

I know from discussing with a friend who works in manual preparation for a mobile phone supplier - it's all about reducing the cost to the absolue bare minimum. They know 90% of people never read the thing anyway, so the business case for doing a paper version at even marginal increased production cost does not stack up, from their point of view. And we are talking about pennies per unit here!

As you say, that ignores the ethical implications of such policy. Legislation will be lobbied against and resisted by industry (as they resist anything that affects cost base), and it is doubtful that there is enough political capital is such a move to garner legislative support.

There is an alternative view, of course - environmentally, is the e-manual a sounder alternative to a paper one? I am unsure of the whole life environmental impact of paper against a CD. If it was online only it might be better, but that would disenfranchise even more people.

 

[Ian]

I was rather hoping that they would be supplied with emannuelles!
Peter

Peter, while I can think of several answers to that I can't publish them without breaking forum rules

How right that is Ian, one of the worst outcomes of personal computing, and an abdication of a manufacturer's responsibility. I don't normally favour additional legislation, but would be happy to see consumer law being used in this respect.
.

I have mixed feelings on the subject, I can certainly see why e-manuals don't get read, but many of the manuals I was refering to can be the size of a couple of phone books when printed and most users would be intimidated by the sheer quantity of information, at least one can search for keywords with the e-version if so inclined.

On a smaller scale I hate it when all that comes with, for instance a new phone is a CD, but conversely I hate the single sheet paper "manuals" that come with, amongst other things, Shimano products. The darn things are in about 12 languages and the text is far too small for the likes of me to read . I usually download the electronic version, at least I can display that any size I want. I guess it's hard to please everyone and keep it cheap.

I don't think theres much chance of e-manuals with e-bikes, the amount of information in a typical manual wouldn't be worth wasting a CD on.

 

[flecc]

I don't think theres much chance of e-manuals with e-bikes, the amount of information in a typical manual wouldn't be worth wasting a CD on.

How true again, one of my bike's manuals, and I won't say which, has an assortment of paragraphs of information largely belonging to different models and relevant to different countries. Some of it refers to features long lost from my model, and features seemingly considered but never adopted.

As one of those extremely rare individuals who always reads a manual from cover to cover before touching the product at all, even if the manual is only in e form, this was extremely disconcerting at first. It was only after months of learning more about the models and their history that it all finally began to make some sense, while remaining almost all irrelevant.

Should anyone doubt I read manuals first, I once wrote an angry letter to a product manufacturer to berate them for packing the manual underneath the product in the box. I guess that makes me a bit extreme. Not as bad as it sounds though. A sheet with the manual advised on how the product should be unpacked!
.

 

[Mike Robinson]

I don't think theres much chance of e-manuals with e-bikes, the amount of information in a typical manual wouldn't be worth wasting a CD on

Rather than put the manual on a CD which either gets lost or scratched why not just keep it on the web on the manufactures site. This way it could be kept up to date and would never get lost. Flashy colour pictures could be shown without any extra cost or even videos showing you how to maintain / adjust everything.

Sadly all types of manuals seem very poor these days. Perhaps it's sites like this that will take their place. There are certainly problems trying to print local manuals for a global product that goes through multiple revisions and that is originally produced in China.

I must admit though, I never read manuals unless I'm totally stuck. I always hope that things are designed in functionally obvious ways.

Mike

 

[flecc]

I always hope that things are designed in functionally obvious ways.

That's a great dictionary definition of an optimist Mike!
.

 

[DBCohen]

Rather than put the manual on a CD which either gets lost or scratched why not just keep it on the web on the manufactures site. This way it could be kept up to date and would never get lost. Flashy colour pictures could be shown without any extra cost or even videos showing you how to maintain / adjust everything.

I must admit though, I never read manuals unless I'm totally stuck. I always hope that things are designed in functionally obvious ways.

Mike

Can you imagine the letters the Flecc would write if they did that????

Seriously, large portions of the population have no access or desire to use the Internet. And it is pretty hard to refer to a manual online while working on a bike in your garage, if your PC is in your bedroom! At least with a CD version you can print out relevant pages.

 

[Mike Robinson]

large portions of the population have no access or desire to use the Internet

Large portions?? Even in Africa there is currently a OLPC (One Laptop Per Child) initiative. India is now a major player in IT. My 70 year old mum regularly sends me emails and chats over Skype. My fathers web site (which he did entirely by himself) is as good as any I've seen.

I'm sure if we did a survey on this forum asking "how many of us use the Internet" the answer would be 100%

it is pretty hard to refer to a manual online while working on a bike in your garage, if your PC is in your bedroom! At least with a CD version you can print out relevant pages

I'm sure your printer is capable of printing web pages as well

Mike

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

Manuals of Interest

I always read manuals because then one discovers what one has taken for granted only to find one was wrong. I found out from my bike manual that the "left Hand side" meant the opposite to what most people believe. But there are, of course, two points of reference - one from the front looking towards the rear of the cycle and one from the rear looking to the front. Of course it did not specify which.
More disconcerting is the advice given in The manual with regard to Li-ion Batteries:
I quote:
Section 5 Battery Charging Operations:
11. Low Voltage Protection: To prevent the battery from deep discharge that will irreversibly damage the battery, the power will cut of when it reached a certain low voltage protection. When you see that the battery level indicator shows the yellow/orange warning light it is necessary to charge your battery again. When the minimum battery level is reached the electric motor will not function smoothly.
NEW BATTERY NEEDS TO BE CONDITIONED WITH 2 OR 3 FULL DISCHARGES AND CHARGE CYCLES BEFORE IT COME TO THE FULL CAPACITY

contrast this with the advice given by e-mail by the manufacturer:

I quote:
4) Our guarantee for the battery is 6 months up to 80% DOD (depth of discharge) or capacity.
Battery could be subject to abuse, such as deep discharge that means customer always discharge his battery empty very frequently, and etc.
The more you charge the battery the better, and don´t take it to empty.

So which is it? and who provides when damage occurs??
Peter