More Seizures

[Ghost1951]

Pardon our interruption...

Sorted for less than a fiver.

As it happens I bought a set of them six months ago and I have now stuck them on the Bafang powered bike downtube and on the Argos cheapo bike's motor hub. It is a fraudulent act, which I don't like, but they do now have labels. I stuck the one on the Argos hub two days ago. It isn't a bafang motor and it is vastly less powerful than 250 watts - probably about 160 watts in actual power, but it now has a label.

 

[nigelbb]

The law is a total mess in this area. There are different power levels quoted in the Winter case than are now supposed to be in force (200 watts under teh 1983 legislation and 15 miles an hour) but the 1983 regs were quoted).

In the e scooter legal advice quoted above , Bezant - Gahan says that police are supposed to warn riders of deviant scooters and not summarily confiscate them as un-insured vehicles.

How the public is supposed to know what to do is questionable and activist Chief Constables can do as they like. In Newcastle I see frankly outrageous riding and ridiculously over powered machines being ridden on pavements and in parks among pedestrians with no apparent enforcement against obviously egregious riding, while in other places, technically complaint bikes may be seized because they don't have a manufacturers label on them, but they meet the requirements in every other respect.

They aren't technically compliant. They are being seized because they are technically non-compliant because they don't have a manufacturers label on them.

 

[guerney]

As it happens I bought a set of them six months ago and I have now stuck them on the Bafang powered bike downtube and on the Argos cheapo bike's motor hub. It is a fraudulent act, which I don't like, but they do now have labels. I stuck the one on the Argos hub two days ago. It isn't a bafang motor and it is vastly less powerful than 250 watts - probably about 160 watts in actual power, but it now has a label.

Are you certain your motor isn't stamped 36V 250W underneath? If not, yet another variation.

The printing on those labels rubs off easily, so I stuck this clear vinyl over mine. Very sticky.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/222555418707?var=521398478275

 

[saneagle]

As it happens I bought a set of them six months ago and I have now stuck them on the Bafang powered bike downtube and on the Argos cheapo bike's motor hub. It is a fraudulent act, which I don't like, but they do now have labels. I stuck the one on the Argos hub two days ago. It isn't a bafang motor and it is vastly less powerful than 250 watts - probably about 160 watts in actual power, but it now has a label.

The law says you have to have the markings on your ebike. It doesn't say who should make the markings, so it's perfectly legal to apply such markings yourself. It would only be fraudulent if the markings had information that you know to be incorrect, like if you put a 250w label on a 500w motor.

 

[flecc]

Are kit adapted bicycle now illegal?

Technically they always have been, I've been warning about this for many years.

When a motor is added to a bicycle a motor vehicle has been created which has to be type approved by the manufacturer unless qualifying for exemption (h) in the Two and Three wheeled vehicle Type Approval Regulation 168/2013.

If an individual does it, or creates or imports any unapproved motor vehicle, they must take their creation or import through Single Vehicle Approval by the government's Vehicle Inspectorate at an approved testing station to be classified or exempted.

This latter provision for SVA has been exploited by the DfT and latterly Wisper to allow throttles on EAPCs which then become motor vehicles, but with an informal ministerial permission (MAC) to be used as EAPCs in Great Britain only.
.

 

[flecc]

Things have definitely changed. I think it was only 5 years ago that I was posting that there was no evidence that anybody had ever been prosecuted for riding an illegal electric bike. Now it happens every day.

It was always going to happen at some time. Self built bikes and modified e-bikes which had always been illegal and still are, had benefitted from an official "blind eye," so long as they conformed to the basic rules of permitted power rating and assist speed and caused no problems.

But now they are causing lots of problems, so the police have stopped using the blind eye and are beginning to enforce the law by prosecution and/or confiscation.

Having a prescribed label might help with some officers, but if a modified machine hasn't been successfully taken through Single Vehicle Approval since, it is illegal and still liable to seizure as the police learn the rules more fully.
.

 

[Ghost1951]

It was always going to happen at some time. Self built bikes and modified e-bikes which had always been illegal and still are, had benefitted from an official "blind eye," so long as they conformed to the basic rules of permitted power rating and assist speed and caused no problems.

But now they are causing lots of problems, so the police have stopped using the blind eye and are beginning to enforce the law by prosecution and/or confiscation.

Having a prescribed label might help with some officers, but if a modified machine hasn't been successfully taken through Single Vehicle Approval since, it is illegal and still liable to seizure as the police learn the rules more fully.
.

I have no truck with anybody who is an anti-social fool who causes problems, but it is the problem behaviour that needs to be attacked, not the fact that they were riding on an ebike. There is a tendency among the stupid and fascistic to want to go after anyone with an ebike that is in some trivial pedantic way not quite right. I'm not talking about people on 2kw motorbikes here, but maybe a labelling issue, but otherwise compliant.

Someone in the last day or so was saying these bikes are being used by robbers and hoodlums so they need to be stopped. So lets imagine applying that 'reasoning' to motor cars. We do have big problems of SOME people using motor cars in crime and in anti-social driving. Is the response to start seizing un-connected cars for parking slightly outside a bay, or other trivial matters? Of course not. It would be mad to do that, just as it is to do the same with ebikes that are not being used in a dangerous, criminal, or nuisance causing way

 

[AntonyC]

This latter provision for SVA has been exploited by the DfT and latterly Wisper to allow throttles on EAPCs which then become motor vehicles, but with an informal ministerial permission (MAC) to be used as EAPCs in Great Britain only.

I might be misreading this as saying an EAPC-like SVA'd vehicle can be used as an EAPC. That seems to differ from the DfT's response to HelenJ which was that:

"if you convert a pedal cycle which has already been ridden on the road to “twist and go” operation, it does not become subject to type approval. As previously noted, the regulations will be directed at the manufacturers and so riders making conversions are not committing an offence. Manufacturers are permitted to sell kits of this nature but would need to ensure they are in line with regulations if sold as EAPC kits (EAPC power and speed limits)."

This says clearly that kits, and by implication DIY (non-kit) conversions, must be in line with regulations for EAPCs (outlined by saneagle in ##233) but can have a fully acting (0 to 15.5mph) throttle a.k.a. Twist and Go, and don't need SVA (I take it that in this context of an individual case "type approval" means SVA).

Has this advice from DfT in 2019 been superceded? Does it have the strength to avoid confiscation if the police pick on my DIY build? Where can I refer the police to it?

 

[Ghost1951]

I'd take the throttle off Anthony if you can manage without it. I know some folks really can't cope without a throttle to get started, so I can't advise them to do that, but if you remove the throttle and can manage, you will be a lot less likely to have a bad outcome if stopped.

I took mine off and chucked it in a box last summer. The only downside for me personally is that I might have to drop a gear or three if I am coming to rest on a hill and might have a hard time getting started again in a high gear. I don't even notice the lack of it now to be honest.

 

[flecc]

I might be misreading this as saying an EAPC-like SVA'd vehicle can be used as an EAPC. That seems to differ from the DfT's response to HelenJ which was that:

"if you convert a pedal cycle which has already been ridden on the road to “twist and go” operation, it does not become subject to type approval. As previously noted, the regulations will be directed at the manufacturers and so riders making conversions are not committing an offence. Manufacturers are permitted to sell kits of this nature but would need to ensure they are in line with regulations if sold as EAPC kits (EAPC power and speed limits)."

This says clearly that kits, and by implication DIY (non-kit) conversions, must be in line with regulations for EAPCs (outlined by saneagle in ##233) but can have a fully acting (0 to 15.5mph) throttle a.k.a. Twist and Go, and don't need SVA (I take it that in this context of an individual case "type approval" means SVA).

Has this advice from DfT in 2019 been superceded? Does it have the strength to avoid confiscation if the police pick on my DIY build? Where can I refer the police to it?

The DfT have been ducking and diving for years on the EAPC issues, trying to hide the mistakes they've made a number of times.

The advice to HelenJ was clearly wrong, to use an EAPC with a fully acting throttle one must take the bike through SVA ( the single vehicle method of getting type approval). That makes it a motor vehicle in law and not exempt, as Wisper for example accepts as inevitable. But the DfT are willing to still treat it as an EAPC and have instructed the police accordingly, despite it being illegal everywhere else that the EU law applies.
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[AntonyC]

I'll be fine with a 4mph throttle but have twice - what is it about roundabouts? - entered, got cramp and crossed bolt rigid at walking pace

Throttle aside the nice thing about that DfT advice was it saying specifically "the [approval] regulations will be directed at the manufacturers and so riders making conversions are not committing an offence [in not getting approval, if EAPC compliant]" (clarifications mine).

For the sake of builders of kit or DIY fully EAPC conformant 'motor vehicles' has that been restated anywhere else?

 

[saneagle]

Having a prescribed label might help with some officers, but if a modified machine hasn't been successfully taken through Single Vehicle Approval since, it is illegal and still liable to seizure as the police learn the rules more fully.
.

I'm not convinced by that argument. The Government website lays down clear rules for what makes an ebike exempt from being classed as a motor vehicle. If a kit bike was illegal, they'd say so.

 

[Sturmey]

I dont know if this is any help but this is what the Government website states.

Power assistance – ‘Twist and Go’

Pedal cycles providing electrical assistance without use of the pedals[footnote 2], usually called ‘Twist and Go’.

‘Twist and Go’ cycles are classified as EAPCs provided they meet the EAPC regulations.

Under assimilated European law, ‘Twist and Go’ EAPCs placed on the market or entering into service after 1 January 2016 have to meet a range of technical requirements before they can be used on roads.

This is typically established by ‘type approval’ at the manufacturing stage.

If a ‘Twist and Go’ EAPC has not been ‘type approved’, importers and individuals can apply for a Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval (MSVA). For MSVA purposes, ‘Twist and Go’ EAPCs fall into the 250W LPM (Low Powered Moped) category.

The requirement for approval is for manufacturers, importers or individuals bringing new vehicles to market or when creating a new ‘Twist and Go’ EAPC.

EAPC standards and legal requirements

www.gov.uk

 

[guerney]

I'm shocked my very silly looking bike hasn't been stopped yet, perhaps silliness is it's defence? Far too silly to be a threat to law and order, can't possibly climb hills at 25kp looking like that. Let's say your legal kit pedelec has been seized at a know nothing bozo copper's say so - how would you get it back? Do you wave the receipt and UKCA certification of conformity of your motor at them? Is there some way to force the police to get it independently assessed and returned with a signed confession from the arresting orificer in a photo frame?

 

[flecc]

I'm not convinced by that argument. The Government website lays down clear rules for what makes an ebike exempt from being classed as a motor vehicle. If a kit bike was illegal, they'd say so.

Government website advice has long been nonsense, as you well well know.

The basis for kit bike illegality is that no motorised vehicle is legal if not an accepted type or exempted in law. The laws for EAPCs are entirely for manufactured machines, and it is in those laws, such as the 1983 regulation and EN15194, that this and the rules on labelling are set out.

Other than SVA, there is no equivalent law for self produced kit machines to be EAPCs. Basically they don't exist in law, either by type or an exemption, so technically they cannot be legally used on the roads unless taken through Single Vehicle Assessment, to then qualify by Type or be exempted.

Thus it became a "blind eye" subject, ignored for convenience while they caused no bother.
.

 

[AntonyC]

That's purely the law though, and that's why it's important to be able to refer the police to any places the Govt have mentioned kits etc. Those may not have legal weight but could reasonably be construed as acceptance and implicit 'instruction' not to confiscate in the case of kit or DIY builds that fully conform to EAPC requirements.

On the brighter side, once we've all done our SVAs we can continue on cycle paths uninsured thanks to MAC, but until then it would still be useful to have the above references to discourage confiscation.

 

[AntonyC]

ChatGPT led to what I'm looking for, I hope our legal eagles will agree there's some benefit in it.

A: Govt Guidance including Buying an e-cycle conversion kit (February 2024). States: check that the kit complies with the UK e-cycle regulations and with British or European standards. Links to B. Reference for A.
Although a kit build is legally a motorised vehicle in need of SVA approval/exemption, here the govt refers to a kit build as an e-cycle 'option'. There's no mention of DIY builds.

B: Govt: Riding an electric bike: the rules (undated). Laid out in textual flowchart form as though for a roadside check. States:
When your bike is an EAPC (the usual pedals, power, speed, markings).
If your electric bike does not meet the EAPC rules then it’s classed as a motorcycle or moped.
If your bike is classed as a motorcycle or moped but has not been insured, you may get a fine or your bike may be seized by the police.
Reference for B: https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules
That's the only mention of seizure.

Taken together, to me this makes clear that the govt does not intend the police to seize EAPC conformant kit builds (e.g. if uninsured) but regards them as legitimate e-cycles. I think it's reasonable to maintain a bike using similarly rated replacement parts so a kit build may end up very much like a DIY build.

While that may wash in a roadside check, in the event of an RTA it might leave a loophole for cyclists' insurers.

 

[lenny]

E-bikes targeted in crackdown on 'untouchable' criminals blighting district
"They are being used to commit criminality at all levels"

E-bikes targeted in crackdown on 'untouchable' criminals blighting district

"They are being used to commit criminality at all levels"

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

 

[lenny]

Police warning over e-bikes being ridden in Skegness area
Officers could seize the bike, issue a fixed penalty notice, up to a £200 fine and six penalty points

Police warning over e-bikes being ridden in Skegness area

Officers could seize the bike, issue a fixed penalty notice, up to a £200 fine and six penalty points

www.lincolnshirelive.co.uk

 

[lenny]

E-bike users in Plymouth behaving badly may result in bylaw
"The police inspector responsible for the city centre, Gregg Bridgett, said e-bikes with a power of 250 watts or which travel at 15.5 mph or less are classed as pedal cycles, preventing the police doing much apart from check roadworthiness and documentation.

However, they stopped 15 riders during an enforcement event, seizing seven of them."

E-bike users in Plymouth behaving badly may result in bylaw

Fast food deliveries could be made to use cycle lanes

www.radioexe.co.uk

E-bike riders could face accreditation rules
An accreditation scheme could be introduced for e-bikes in Plymouth because of concerns about the behaviour of some food delivery riders and other users.

"Insp Gregg Bridgett said Devon and Cornwall Police stopped 15 riders during a recent enforcement event and seized seven of them."

"Scrutiny board members agreed to work with city centre businesses to find out about any responsibilities they had for self-employed delivery drivers, and may consider an accreditation scheme to raise standards."

Plymouth e-bike riders could face accreditation rules

A council committee has concerns over the behaviour of some delivery riders and other users.

www.bbc.co.uk