BAFANG | M-Series (bafang-e.com)
Bafang's M series are quite expensive to buy, not much difference in price compared to Shimano motors.
My name is ..... And I'm new here.....
- Thread starter FastFreddy2
- Start date
Bafang's M series are quite expensive to buy, not much difference in price compared to Shimano motors.
if they wont service it then dont buy it they got stung for thousands for fixing the e8000 as they was the last ones to open them so had to replace every motor they serviced/opened and all got bricked with sensor faults.
they booby trap the bloody things same as the bosch bms they dont want them fixed or serviced which given the price is bloody crazy but they do like all the rest and just throw it in the bin and get a new one.
i could open the e8000 and service it but the risk of a sensor going bad is so high it is not worth the hassle esp as the only option is one from Germany at a cost of a 1000 quid and even then it might not work unless can find a dealer to use the software to set it up as wont sell that either
yet embn and rob rides does nothing bar push this brand and when warranty ends and the motor goes you are screwed because that was the plan from the start buy it bin it and go buy a new one for 10k
I have now watched your video of you climbing up that hill, and I am pretty confident that you can do that very easily with an XF07 kit. It would be a straightforward installation with left side pedal sensor.I have sent some emails to you directly. You have quite a lot of reading, in your email account.
Thanks for the responses above.
I have one XF07 in 20" rim if you are interested.
I would suggest (subject to being told otherwise) Bafang motors are more reliable than the Shimano E8000's (and EP8's possibly) and likely service parts are available. The Asian market isn't so keen to 'throwaway' 80% of a fully serviceable motor to keep some companies profit levels up.
If there's a demand, as plainly there is, someone will be looking at cloning the shimano motor in a more attractive package price wise. The market for e-motors seems to be mushrooming, and unreliable motors isn't a way to progress the increase in market interest. As I mentioned before I think, Levo's were once £5k, are now £8k for a similar/same spec. That's doubtless to accommodate the need for replacement motors during the guarantee period. My mate when last we spoke, was at that time, on his third motor.
If there's a demand, as plainly there is, someone will be looking at cloning the shimano motor in a more attractive package price wise. The market for e-motors seems to be mushrooming, and unreliable motors isn't a way to progress the increase in market interest. As I mentioned before I think, Levo's were once £5k, are now £8k for a similar/same spec. That's doubtless to accommodate the need for replacement motors during the guarantee period. My mate when last we spoke, was at that time, on his third motor.
You have an email about this already.
If you are confident it can do the job, yes we are interested.
there are no service parts available only Yamaha sell motor parts like gears and controllers as they use uart the rest use can bus and a totally locked system and they wont even sell you bearings peter has to custom make most of the ones they sell and a min order of 1000 for each bearing so got totally screwed when he got them made for the shitmano motors.
like apple they dont want you servicing anything and are throw away items and with the new bosch smart frame batts they wont work with older motors so as my bike is now 10 years old there wont be any new batts for me to buy.
but i have found someone that can recell these can bus locked batts but it is not 100% but as long as it is charging and working it can be done and a bit cheaper than new but still 500 quid.
ebike vision make 3rd party batts but in Germany and wont post them but even more expensive than bosch ones
if i got given a 15k bike with a bosch smart motor for my bike id say no thanks
like apple they dont want you servicing anything and are throw away items and with the new bosch smart frame batts they wont work with older motors so as my bike is now 10 years old there wont be any new batts for me to buy.
but i have found someone that can recell these can bus locked batts but it is not 100% but as long as it is charging and working it can be done and a bit cheaper than new but still 500 quid.
ebike vision make 3rd party batts but in Germany and wont post them but even more expensive than bosch ones
if i got given a 15k bike with a bosch smart motor for my bike id say no thanks
That doesn't sound very useful. A considerable amount of people riding bicycles, do their own maintenance, or pay what seems to be a growing amount of 'sports' dealerships to do it. Halfords or Go Outdoors, amongst them. "No spares" is not a good sales tag. Would you buy a washing machine if you were told "no spares", or vacuum cleaner? I don't think we've quite reached a 100% throw-away consumerism yet.
Update on this particular project, Tony at Woosh and flecc have have provided the help needed to make a purchasing decision, (aka select a specific kit) and so an order was placed today on Woosh.
We've asked to have the kit delivered mid-week next week, because we don't want anything stuck in a couriers warehouse over the bank-holiday weekend. I'll start another thread detailing the progress of the project, as and when it happens in another forum here. Anyone not a member who might be looking for advice, would do well to read the pages here. I don't understand half of what I've read in other threads, but I'm hoping over time, I will learn.
Thank you, to ALL the contributors who have helped.
Good luck with it.
It must be a record for a first post: 5 pages of responses, almost all relevant and on topic.
It must be a record for a first post: 5 pages of responses, almost all relevant and on topic.
if ur m8s mot0r goes send it to peter
At eBike Motor Centre we noticed the failure rates of the Brose motors has been widely reported and discussed on forums and social media platforms all over the world. We could also see from our own experience, and the sheer number of Brose motors going through our workshop that there were a few issues that needed addressing. Particularly when used off road. Although Brose have been working hard to address some of these issues, that does not really help those outside of the warranty period. So we decided to do something about it!
We can now offer an upgrade for all Brose motors. This includes the following:
- Uprated thicker, stronger, Brose carbon fibre drive belt.
- Uprated heavy duty sprag clutch bearing for the motor drive pulley
- Uprated heavy duty sprag clutch bearing for the crankshaft drive
- Single lip rotary shaft seal to stop water ingress into the crankshaft needle roller bearing and beyond (This also stops rust damage to the crankshaft bearing surface and premature failure of the crankshaft needle roller bearing)
- Genuine Brose bearing cover seal for the right hand crankshaft ball bearing (Not fitted till 2017)
- Waterproof long life grease packed between outer bearings and motor covers. (This helps stop water sitting in these areas and seeping into the outer bearings).
- We also fit an external X-ring seal each side of the crankshaft to further stop the chance of any water ingress into the motor.
- We remove the two ECU cover screws and seal these to stop water ingress into the ECU.
- Finally, we treat and coat the motors electric plugs to stop corrosion and water entering the ECU by capillary action along the wires.
Brose Motor Upgrade Service - eBike Motor Centre (Performance Line Bearings)
At eBike Motor Centre we noticed the failure rates of the Brose motors has been widely reported and discussed on forums and social media platforms all over the world. We could also see from our own experience, and the sheer number of Brose motors going through our workshop that there were a few...
www.ebikemotorcentre.com
there was once a company called 50 cycles that sold the kalkoff bikes with the impulse motors and every single one broke under warranty and there bright idea was to do endless supply of new motors as peter was not around back then and went bust.
shitmano is going down the same road not fixing anything and shiting on the customer with a puny 2 year warranty on bikes that cost 10k is a fkn joke.
if it was me id be taking them to court because it is not fit for purpose.
Interim update.......
I still plan to do a complete thread on the installation of the XF07 hub motor and battery sourced from Woosh Bikes onto the Kettwiesel Evo, but the development of Plan A, issue 3 is still incomplete, meaning the project is still "work-in-progress" although there might be some news of interest...
Delivery
The kit was delivered, by DPD who I would recommend to no-one. Two delivery times were missed, and to thwart them missing a third, we had the kit delivered to another address. Andy at Woosh was as underimpressed as we were, and it wasn't like he didn't try to get the kit delivered either. Seems DPDs delivery performance is dependant on your location, and the original delivery address wasn't one of the good ones....
Fitting
The 20" hub motor is fitted (unsurprisingly) to 20" forks. As it turns out (because I hadn't realised) they are 20" air forks. Why are these two particulars of any importance? Firstly, there is possible more 'spring' in 26" forks, more in 27.5" and more in 28" forks, meaning the dropouts in either might be persuaded to open an extra millimeter or so if required. The shape of the air forks, meant fitting the hub motor was almost impossible, because there just wasn't room for the hub and spacers to keep moving parts away from the fork. I've actually crimped the left-hand fork tube, getting the hub to fit. I have priced up a suitable non-suspension fork at £44, that doesn't have the fork struts encroaching on the dropout gap. Put another way, the installation of XF07 hub wouldn't normally be possible with the Grind branded 20" air forks.
On longer forks, it would have probably been possible to add washers to provide the necessary clearance, but not with these forks. I accidentally crimped the bottom of the left fork leg using a car jack to try to open the legs. I only needed a couple of millimeters to get the hub in after all..... Fortunately, the air shock still works as it should, although an air fork at the front of this style seem a bit redundant to me.
Right side of fork, indicating clearance.
Left side, showing clearance.
It took some considerable time to get the wheel mounted. I am not looking forward to remove it, and reinstall it the other side of a puncture repair (for example). When time allows, I will be trying to use some thinner washers to see if there's enough space to get the hub on without having to (literally) lever it into place. I also had to remove some paint from the dropouts to get the hub axles inserted.
You can see from the images, it's the fork tubes that are encroaching on the hub. This isn't a problem with a regular wheel because the hub/spoke arrangement is narrower.
The battery was then (literally) lashed to the boom of the trike .....
To test whether the hub and battery combination was capable of carrying me and the trike up that hill. The controller was sat on my lap for the test.
Performance.
With assistance set to Max, I was able to get up that hill so quickly, I overtook several pedestrians walking uphill in the same direction. Previously, when pedalling under my own steam, I was going so slowly, they would have overtaken me..... I was very impressed with the ride and went back down the hill and came up a second time because it was such a pleasant experience. Yay!
With the test passed as it were, we could be sure there was no need for a respoked BPM motor and could keep the kit we had been supplied.
It has taken some time since, for me to design and source the means of securely fitting the battery where it needs to go. I want it slung under the boom, but since the battery holder and mounting system is plastic, it would need to sit on a tray, and the mountings would need to be offset because of the steering arm (once again) which moves under the boom on hard left and hard right turns. The whole idea of having the battery at the front of course, is to add weight (and thus grip) to the front wheel. The underslung solution provided so many demands on a design, it has been temporarily shelved, and an over-boom method was put together, as a proving concept, rather like ensuring the battery and hub would get up that hill.
As with the whole project, costs had to be minimised because mistakes would be part of the project. £40 wasted, would be better than £200 wasted. We got some mountings made, that were very reasonably priced, although I would slightly change the design for a second issue.
The platform the battery is currently fixed to is made of wood, because shaping that is easier than metal, and a mistake can easily/cheaply be resolved. When the final shape is confirmed, there is an expectation the platform will be replaced with aluminium plate.
For the record, the current battery mounting, is very very stable.
The next problem, and hopefully the last problem with fitting the kit, is placing the controller somewhere. Typically these fit to handlebars..... As of yesterday, I think I've come up with a solution, and once that is tested, the owner does not need to have the cable and controller sat in her lap while riding.
There might be an extra picture to add over the weekend.
I do have one query, which is regarding how the system works. While the system is switched to Max assist, almost any movement of the cranks has the expected result. (And as I wrote above, a very pleasant experience it is too.) When I move the assistance level to Min, there doesn't seem to be much difference in the actual assistance provided? The sensor for this kit is on the pedal spindle, so 'cadence' sensor not torque sensor?? Does this mean, it's impossible for the controller to know how much assistance I actually need? ie More assistance climbing a hill? If this is the case, I can understand that. The sensor doesn't recognise resistance.
So, (and this is the question I would like answered please), what is the actual difference between Min and Max on the controller? What is effected by changing this on the controller?
I still plan to do a complete thread on the installation of the XF07 hub motor and battery sourced from Woosh Bikes onto the Kettwiesel Evo, but the development of Plan A, issue 3 is still incomplete, meaning the project is still "work-in-progress" although there might be some news of interest...
Delivery
The kit was delivered, by DPD who I would recommend to no-one. Two delivery times were missed, and to thwart them missing a third, we had the kit delivered to another address. Andy at Woosh was as underimpressed as we were, and it wasn't like he didn't try to get the kit delivered either. Seems DPDs delivery performance is dependant on your location, and the original delivery address wasn't one of the good ones....
Fitting
The 20" hub motor is fitted (unsurprisingly) to 20" forks. As it turns out (because I hadn't realised) they are 20" air forks. Why are these two particulars of any importance? Firstly, there is possible more 'spring' in 26" forks, more in 27.5" and more in 28" forks, meaning the dropouts in either might be persuaded to open an extra millimeter or so if required. The shape of the air forks, meant fitting the hub motor was almost impossible, because there just wasn't room for the hub and spacers to keep moving parts away from the fork. I've actually crimped the left-hand fork tube, getting the hub to fit. I have priced up a suitable non-suspension fork at £44, that doesn't have the fork struts encroaching on the dropout gap. Put another way, the installation of XF07 hub wouldn't normally be possible with the Grind branded 20" air forks.
On longer forks, it would have probably been possible to add washers to provide the necessary clearance, but not with these forks. I accidentally crimped the bottom of the left fork leg using a car jack to try to open the legs. I only needed a couple of millimeters to get the hub in after all..... Fortunately, the air shock still works as it should, although an air fork at the front of this style seem a bit redundant to me.
Right side of fork, indicating clearance.
Left side, showing clearance.
It took some considerable time to get the wheel mounted. I am not looking forward to remove it, and reinstall it the other side of a puncture repair (for example). When time allows, I will be trying to use some thinner washers to see if there's enough space to get the hub on without having to (literally) lever it into place. I also had to remove some paint from the dropouts to get the hub axles inserted.
You can see from the images, it's the fork tubes that are encroaching on the hub. This isn't a problem with a regular wheel because the hub/spoke arrangement is narrower.
The battery was then (literally) lashed to the boom of the trike .....
To test whether the hub and battery combination was capable of carrying me and the trike up that hill. The controller was sat on my lap for the test.
Performance.
With assistance set to Max, I was able to get up that hill so quickly, I overtook several pedestrians walking uphill in the same direction. Previously, when pedalling under my own steam, I was going so slowly, they would have overtaken me..... I was very impressed with the ride and went back down the hill and came up a second time because it was such a pleasant experience. Yay!
With the test passed as it were, we could be sure there was no need for a respoked BPM motor and could keep the kit we had been supplied.
It has taken some time since, for me to design and source the means of securely fitting the battery where it needs to go. I want it slung under the boom, but since the battery holder and mounting system is plastic, it would need to sit on a tray, and the mountings would need to be offset because of the steering arm (once again) which moves under the boom on hard left and hard right turns. The whole idea of having the battery at the front of course, is to add weight (and thus grip) to the front wheel. The underslung solution provided so many demands on a design, it has been temporarily shelved, and an over-boom method was put together, as a proving concept, rather like ensuring the battery and hub would get up that hill.
As with the whole project, costs had to be minimised because mistakes would be part of the project. £40 wasted, would be better than £200 wasted. We got some mountings made, that were very reasonably priced, although I would slightly change the design for a second issue.
The platform the battery is currently fixed to is made of wood, because shaping that is easier than metal, and a mistake can easily/cheaply be resolved. When the final shape is confirmed, there is an expectation the platform will be replaced with aluminium plate.
For the record, the current battery mounting, is very very stable.
The next problem, and hopefully the last problem with fitting the kit, is placing the controller somewhere. Typically these fit to handlebars..... As of yesterday, I think I've come up with a solution, and once that is tested, the owner does not need to have the cable and controller sat in her lap while riding.
There might be an extra picture to add over the weekend.
I do have one query, which is regarding how the system works. While the system is switched to Max assist, almost any movement of the cranks has the expected result. (And as I wrote above, a very pleasant experience it is too.) When I move the assistance level to Min, there doesn't seem to be much difference in the actual assistance provided? The sensor for this kit is on the pedal spindle, so 'cadence' sensor not torque sensor?? Does this mean, it's impossible for the controller to know how much assistance I actually need? ie More assistance climbing a hill? If this is the case, I can understand that. The sensor doesn't recognise resistance.
So, (and this is the question I would like answered please), what is the actual difference between Min and Max on the controller? What is effected by changing this on the controller?
would you please email support about this? You have a steep hill nearby, so it should be easy to check out the different assist levels climbing this hill. Higher level should be equal to higher climbing speed.
Do you mean where to place the KM529 LCD?
Seems so, since here where I live, DPD is the best courier delivery company by a huge margin. Every delivery precisely when predicted, perfect tracking and never any damage.
Suspension for a lightly loaded front as on the Kettweisel is valuable in keeping the tyre in contact with the road surface all the time. Bouncing with a rigid fork at every bump could leave the tyre in the air frequently, losing steerage (and traction with a hub motor) and increasing tyre wear.
.
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I can, but do I need to? I was thinking this is more of a generic/general thing, than an equipment specific issue? I did do a little reading about cadence vs torque sensors before I asked about the symptoms of each.
Does the Min/Max refer to the potential amps available to the motor?
I only had time for a very brief test, on what many would consider level ground. Because the trike owner is not used to any sort of speed and doesn't want speed either, the maximum speed has been turned down on the controller from 25kph to 12 (I think). It equates to 7.something mph. As I moved the cranks, the assistance was quite keen to get me to 6mph as soon as it felt movement in the crank spindle. For the most part, exactly what I was expecting. However, there was no resistance left over in the pedalling motion. Had I just one leg clipped into a pedal, I could have moved the trike as far as I wanted with no real effort from my one leg.
Surely, this is the cadence 'system', doing what it is supposed to? You are suggesting that the difference in assistance would be easier to determine/experience, under load. Going up a hill for example. If I can make time for that over the weekend, I will try the lower assistance levels to help me get up that hill, and report back. Perhaps I will have to put a lot more effort into actually pedalling up that hill with the controller set to minimum.
What I didn't suggest, even from my very limited test, was the absence of no difference. Even on a flat, there was a small increase in eagerness, when the controller was set to maximum.
I am making a small pedestal to sit immediately behind the battery, and just above the boom in front of the rider. I had thought to mount it on a 'bar end', on one of the steering arms of the trike, but the owner was not keen on that. I have thought of a way to place it in a more convenient place, and will be trying out the idea over the weekend. "We" were expecting to go out for a "maiden voyage" on Sunday, along a disused railway line now used by walkers and cyclists. Sadly, it looks like two days of rain, (Friday and Saturday) may prevent that happening. The trike owner doesn't want to practice on her new machine, anywhere near the public, or anywhere near potential 'incidents' if she loses full control.
The distribution centre for both delivery addresses, is the same town. I live 20-25 minutes away from the distribution centre. The original delivery address (known to DPD which delivers there a couple of times a month) is only a further 13 miles away, but adds 25-30 minutes to an outward journey. The first delivery failed because the driver couldn't find the address, which given there are only two properties with the delivery postcode, was/is a little hard to believe. The promised 'next morning before 12' promised to Andy at Woosh, also failed, so we arranged delivery to my address and it turned up when it was expected. I'm sure DPD would offer 'driver shortages', or 'new staff', as a reason, but as someone having been told it would arrive at X or Y time, my interest is only in making sure someone is around to take in the order. Not much fun when the delivery, just doesn't turn up. It's not like the driver didn't have a phone number either.
In principle, a front wheel with suspension is a good idea with many practical benefits.
On this style of trike, I will suggest it's almost a complete waste of money. A replacement air suspension fork, I think I found for about £220. Hase wanted £190 for a non-suspension fork. Not much in it, until you find the non-suspension one I did at £44.
We were advised by the Hase retailer we've had some good service from, that a hub motor will wear out the suspension fork and we ought to fit a non-suspension fork if we fit an e-hub. I looked at it from the point of view of getting the hub motor back into the drop outs, and favour the rigid fork for the space between the drop outs. If the front suspension forks provided anything useful, I probably would agree about keeping the wheel in contact with mother earth. When me or the owner sit in/on the trike, there is some noticeable sag in the rear air suspension, but the front doesn't budge. In fact it is so stiff, I hadn't realised it was an air shock until I used the current fork model name as guidance for a rigid replacement. I could let some air out possibly, as I haven't checked the pressure, but .... I'm not sure having a much more responsive front fork with a small diameter (20") hub motor pulling a trike in that configuration is a good idea. Going around sharp corners, even under minimal assistance, is something of a lively experience already.
It's very very very unlikely, the owner will ever go over rough ground. Hardpack trails next to canals, or disused railway lines will be the most frequented routes, as I see the future anyway. Because I was able to get the hub in place, the owner doesn't seem that bothered about having a rigid fork fitted at this stage anyway. The tyres are Marathons, so punctures should be few and far between. The new hub has a hole for Schrader valve, and the original inner tube is a Presta. I have ensured this incompatibility isn't going to be a problem in the short term, and a new inner tube with a Schrader valve has been bought, but not yet fitted. Not a job I am looking forward to.....
P.S. The front wheel is no longer 'lightly loaded'....
best to start slow until she feels OK to increase speed limit
I can flash her controller with a different setting in case she needs changes.
That of course negates any gain. As Colin Chapman of Lotus showed many years ago when he revolutionised sports suspension design, enough softness to retain tyre-road contact at all times is essential.
But of course it doesn't have to be suspension. As Hillman showed when solving the revised Imp's design problem, a softer tyre can work just as well.
.
I know nothing of Mr Hillman, but Colin Chapman..... A god in his field.
40 years ago I would have given a kidney to own a Lotus Europa in JPS livery ..... Immortalised in the 1974 film 11 Harrowhouse, starring amongst other well known thespians the great British actor; James Mason.
The Hillman Imp was originally being designed as a British equivalent of the Citroen 2CV, a cheap, light, air-cooled 2 cylinder but rear-engined 4 seater. But during development they discovered the Mini was being designed to sell at a similar price with a four cylinder water cooled engine.
Realising their design wouldn't stand a chance they went hunting for a four cylinder engine and discovered the Coventry Climax alloy four cylinder fire pump engine, which when adapted was already being used in a racing class.
That fitted the bill, but in the rear of the car it made it tail heavy with little weight on the front axle to keep the front tyres on the road. The solution was the very low front tyre pressure of only 15 lbs, able to accurately flex over minor road irregularities while keeping contact, rear tyres at a more normal 30lbs. Despite this apparent imbalance the Hillman Imp was successful in production car racing.
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Great engine, rubbish car!The Hillman Imp was originally being designed as a British equivalent of the Citroen 2CV, a cheap, light, air-cooled 2 cylinder but rear-engined 4 seater. But during development they discovered the Mini was being designed to sell at a similar price with a four cylinder water cooled engine.
Realising their design wouldn't stand a chance they went hunting for a four cylinder engine and discovered the Coventry Climax alloy four cylinder fire pump engine, which when adapted was already being used in a racing class.
That fitted the bill, but in the rear of the car it made it tail heavy with little weight on the front axle to keep the front tyres on the road. The solution was the very low front tyre pressure of only 15 lbs, able to accurately flex over minor road irregularities while keeping contact, rear tyres at a more normal 30lbs. Despite this apparent imbalance the Hillman Imp was successful in production car racing.
Fuel tank in the front crumple zone, long single wishbone front suspension and crazy amounts of front positive camber, allegedly to get the headlights high enough to be legal...
At least the steering wheel was round!
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