Help! My next project

saneagle

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 10, 2010
8,886
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Telford
Thanks Saneagle. I'm not sure I fully understand but it seems then that the system is working as it should. If this is so then it is hugely disappointing as it makes it impractable for the many V shaped bottoms with steep climbs out that I encounter. I'm not looking for great speed here but 60-80 watts very slowly ramping up on a 1:8 or greater climb is, frankly, bloody useless.
I don't understand why you reference 13mph.
The Ezee was fully there straight away, this is what I'm used to. This, of course, was speed control and I'm wondering if changing this system to speed control would help this issue.
I only started this project as the Ezee was an unmarked big motor that didn't cut off at 15.5mph. I was just trying to be legal. Hurumph !
13 mph is the point where the controller can no longer give full current.

Here's a simulation for any 201 rpm motor at 36v with a 20A controller. You can see the ramping down from 22km/hr where the red and blue lines are together. The corner at the top is where the controller is no longer the limiting factor:
 

matthewslack

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2021
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Why does it take several (how many?) seconds to give full power when reengaging at 6mph or so? I'd want and expect to be at full power in a fraction of a second.
 

saneagle

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 10, 2010
8,886
3,985
Telford
Why does it take several (how many?) seconds to give full power when reengaging at 6mph or so? I'd want and expect to be at full power in a fraction of a second.
Mine is instant. the control system doesn't have any intelligence that could do that. You open the throttle and it goes. You pedal and it goes. It doesn't care what speed you're doing or have been doing other than the consideration of the max cut-off speed. Maybe his battery is weak and can't provide enough power, though you'd expect it to have recovered after freewheeling.
 

Benjahmin

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 10, 2014
2,745
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West Wales
Now we're getting to it. The whole nub of the problem is this infuriating intermittant delay.
I run two 14.5Ah batteries in parallel, both made by Jimmy. My charging diaries tell me one is on 256 charges the other on 167. None of those will have been full cycle charges. They have been running the Ezee system throughout those charges with no problems. They charge to 41.7v.
Most of the time the system does respond instantaneously to pas and/or throttle, on sudden ramps, steep inside corners, pulling away from junctions. But it's at those crucial V bottoms it's letting me down. The inconsistancy is infuriating and it's this I/we are trying to find the cause of.
I'll repeat what I found today, in case it helps.
Scenario is going down hill.
If I don't pedal at all going down hill (just let the bike roll) and don't pedal until speed comes down to 15.5mph, then power pick up is nigh on instantaneous.
If I do pedal (bikes gearing will allow me to pedal up to around 30mph) then the system will not kick in until speed is very low (8mph or less) and when it does the increase in watts displayed in painfully slow. There was no sag showing on battery indicator at this point.

Saneagle, I know you've said you've had trouble with the 12 magnet pas's that I have fitted, do you think it could be something to do with that?

I'm trying to be as concise and accurate with my language and observations as I can. Thanks for all the help and suggestions so far for this apparently irrational problem.
 

Sturmey

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2018
733
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Ireland
..........If I don't pedal at all going down hill (just let the bike roll) and don't pedal until speed comes down to 15.5mph, then power pick up is nigh on instantaneous.
If I do pedal (bikes gearing will allow me to pedal up to around 30mph) then the system will not kick in until speed is very low (8mph or less) and when it does the increase in watts displayed in painfully slow. There was no sag showing on battery indicator at this point........
I think anotherkiwi had that problem (2019) and came to the same conclusion in terms of not pedaling until the speed goes below 25 Km/hr. He comments on it below. I hope its some help.
 

saneagle

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 10, 2010
8,886
3,985
Telford
Now we're getting to it. The whole nub of the problem is this infuriating intermittant delay.
I run two 14.5Ah batteries in parallel, both made by Jimmy. My charging diaries tell me one is on 256 charges the other on 167. None of those will have been full cycle charges. They have been running the Ezee system throughout those charges with no problems. They charge to 41.7v.
Most of the time the system does respond instantaneously to pas and/or throttle, on sudden ramps, steep inside corners, pulling away from junctions. But it's at those crucial V bottoms it's letting me down. The inconsistancy is infuriating and it's this I/we are trying to find the cause of.
I'll repeat what I found today, in case it helps.
Scenario is going down hill.
If I don't pedal at all going down hill (just let the bike roll) and don't pedal until speed comes down to 15.5mph, then power pick up is nigh on instantaneous.
If I do pedal (bikes gearing will allow me to pedal up to around 30mph) then the system will not kick in until speed is very low (8mph or less) and when it does the increase in watts displayed in painfully slow. There was no sag showing on battery indicator at this point.

Saneagle, I know you've said you've had trouble with the 12 magnet pas's that I have fitted, do you think it could be something to do with that?

I'm trying to be as concise and accurate with my language and observations as I can. Thanks for all the help and suggestions so far for this apparently irrational problem.
I don't think it's anything to do with the pedal sensor. All it does is pulse. The pulse speed doesn't matter.

The only thing I can think of is something to do with the clutch, but I can't think what. In one case, the the motor is spinning with the clutch disengaged, and the other the motor isn't spinning with the clutch engaged. Maybe the centrifugal force holds the rollers out and prevents them from engaging. I remember other peopl talking about weird effects like that with other controllers and motors. The more I think about it, the more I believe that's what's happening. The rollers in AKM clutches are on quite a large diameter, so would get more centrifugal force than most

If my theory is correct, you'd see something around 30 to 50 watts on the meter when the speed is below 15 mph, you're demanding power, but not getting any. The moment the clutch engages, the motor will go from no load to loaded, so the power should jump to normal levels, depending on what you have the power set to.

The solution would be to stop pedalling for a couple of seconds when the speed gets down to say 17 mph. That would give the motor a chance to slow down to engagement speed before you reach 15 mph. Alternatively, keep pedalling, but feather the brake to use the brake switch to cut the motor. The moment you're down to 15mph, you can either pedal or let go of the brake, and the clutch will engage to give all the power you want.
 
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Sparksandbangs

Pedelecer
Jan 16, 2025
132
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I think anotherkiwi had that problem (2019) and came to the same conclusion in terms of not pedaling until the speed goes below 25 Km/hr. He comments on it below. I hope its some help.
Interesting. Tomorrows test is to pedal down the hill then stop pedaling at the bottom of the V. Let it coast up the hill until the speed drops below the set point and then start pedaling again.
 

Benjahmin

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 10, 2014
2,745
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West Wales
Looks like Anotherkiwi came to the same no pedal conclusion. The two bikes he lists both have KT controllers.
If my theory is correct, you'd see something around 30 to 50 watts on the meter when the speed is below 15 mph, you're demanding power, but not getting any. The moment the clutch engages, the motor will go from no load to loaded, so the power should jump to normal levels, depending on what you have the power set to.
If the bug (let's call it that) is happening, then there is zero watts displayed. When it does decide to kick in it is around 50-80watts very slowly ramping up to pas level.
One of my test runs is a downhill side road coming to a main road blind T junction in the village. So I have to stop to see it's clear to pull out onto flat road. If I've pedalled down the hill to be changing down through the gears ready to pull away, then I get zero power as I pull away, only kicking in some way along the flat.
Generally the gear changing would be with brake switch operated, but I will test this further.


It's starting to look like it's down to a change of riding habit. Not sure yet how that's going to work out. Often, as one approaches the bottom of a hill, one has to be pedalling in order to change gear ready for the climb out.

As AK quotes the same bug also with KT controllers I can't understand how others have not noticed it. AK also lived in a very hilly area so maybe it's only apparent to us hillbillies.

You live near some pretty big hills Saneagle, does yours not do this?
 

matthewslack

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2021
2,506
1,639
If I don't pedal at all going down hill (just let the bike roll) and don't pedal until speed comes down to 15.5mph, then power pick up is nigh on instantaneous.
If I do pedal (bikes gearing will allow me to pedal up to around 30mph) then the system will not kick in until speed is very low (8mph or less) and when it does the increase in watts displayed in painfully slow. There was no sag showing on battery indicator at this point.
Just to be completely sure I have the right end of the stick, is the above behaviour consistent in every V bottom, I.e. 100% correlation with pedal/ no pedal?

Now we're getting to it. The whole nub of the problem is this infuriating intermittant delay...
 

RogerA

Pedelecer
Jun 21, 2021
65
25
I have an AKM100 motor and 36V 15A KT controller. I have a few similar situations near me where I'll hit 30+mph coasting downhill and then go straight back up the other side. I've never noticed this issue, but I do start pedaling uphill in high gears before the motor would kick in, and then it kicks in normally when I drop to the cut off speed. If I've had to stop at the bottom of a hill, as I do pulling out onto a main road near me, then the motor always kicks in OK.
 

Benjahmin

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 10, 2014
2,745
1,798
71
West Wales
Just to be completely sure I have the right end of the stick, is the above behaviour consistent in every V bottom, I.e. 100% correlation with pedal/ no pedal?
Yet to be further tested Matthew.
Thanks Roger, this is part of what I'm trying to establish.
I am contemplating getting in touch with the supplier but the thought of trying to explain this in simple translatable English is daunting.
 
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saneagle

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 10, 2010
8,886
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Telford
Yet to be further tested Matthew.
Thanks Roger, this is part of what I'm trying to establish.
I am contemplating getting in touch with the supplier but the thought of trying to explain this in simple translatable English is daunting.
Suppliers don't have a clue how their stuff works. You'd be wasting your time. there is nothing wrong with what you have. You just have to figure out how to use it. Try what I suggested in post #206. I'm pretty sure that it'll solve your issue.