Newbie - Advice required on conversion legals please?

[Brummie]

you need to experience a bike with throttle to appreciate the difference.
The assist levels are programmed via the LCD in two ways, current and speed. The users don't often get to change the parameters but for the sake of clarity, let's assume they can. A bike with a Bafang BBS01 is in this category. You can program the number of levels, 3 to 9 or even more. More is certainly inconvenient. 5 is about the right number of assist levels. For each level, you set a percentage of maximum power, for example level 1 @ 40%, 2 at 50%, 3 at 70% 4 at 85% and 5 at 100%. At each level, you can set the ramp of power, which depends on the cadence and the speed. The controller is programmed to take you to a set speed as quickly and smoothly as possible.
On the other hand, the throttle delivers a voltage to the controller, between 0.5V and 4.5V. 1V gives you 25% of maximum power. It is a very intuitive power tap.
The maximum power is equal to Voltage of the battery * the maximum Amp rating of the controller * motor efficiency at the speed you are riding at.
That's why I said in an earlier post, you should not believe in the marketing hype of the 1000W motors. A 36V battery when fully charge delivers 41.5V, if your controller has a maximum Amp rating at 17A and your motor is in sweet zone, its efficiency is around 85%, the amount of mechanical power at your command is 41.5V * 17A * 0.85 = 600W mechanical at your rear wheel and it is legal for you to use until you hit 15.5 miles or the set speed whichever the lower.

Thanks and understood. But isn't that more complicated & less tactile/tangible that the legal throttle that we've discussed?
Again, it won't be an issue if I have a conversion kit where even fully active throttles are allegedly permitted.

 

[flecc]

Thanks. But that's EXACTLY what I've been describing all along that caused all the kerfuffle. Are you playing me up now?.

I would never do that when answering questions. It wasn't clear that was what you were asking, perhaps because you were asking multiple questions with each post.

That Ezee system was never very common, especially because throttles were being phased out with the changes in the law. Even they stopped supplying it, instead having a cadence sensor to ensure rotation and 9 level switched power system.
.

 

[Woosh]

Thanks and understood. But isn't that more complicated & less tactile/tangible that the legal throttle that we've discussed?
Again, it won't be an issue if I have a conversion kit where even fully active throttles are allegedly permitted.

No, although the throttle always take priority when both throttle and pedal sensing are active, the pedal sensor offers a much nicer experience!
You don't have to keep a finger on the thumb throttle for a start and don't have to think, you select the assist level to suit your fitness and cadence. I usually set it to 1 in the morning and 2 in the afternoon, just pedal as much as you like, the computer inside the controller sorts out how to assist you.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

The bikes that I tested were pedal movement sensing and appeared to deliver the full power set level at the slightest pedal movement (however slow I pedalled). There was no proportional control about it (either crank torque or cadence).

Just to be clear, the Carrera Crossfire and Vulcan have the torque sensor and the cheaper Vengeance has a cadence sensor. The torque sensor ones seem to give about half maximum power as soon as you start pedalling (also depending on the mode selected in the LCD). The power algorithm then seems to be related to speed and possibly pedal effort. The torque sensor senses both pedal force and rotation speed.

I would recommend only the vengeance for commuting because the torque sensor is not robust against dirty/wet cycling; however, the Vengeance has the smallest battery, so it will only last for the journey one way, i.e. 30 miles.

 

[Brummie]

Just to be clear, the Carrera Crossfire and Vulcan have the torque sensor and the cheaper Vengeance has a cadence sensor. The torque sensor ones seem to give about half maximum power as soon as you start pedalling (also depending on the mode selected in the LCD). The power algorithm then seems to be related to speed and possibly pedal effort. The torque sensor senses both pedal force and rotation speed.

I would recommend only the vengeance for commuting because the torque sensor is not robust against dirty/wet cycling; however, the Vengeance has the smallest battery, so it will only last for the journey one way, i.e. 30 miles.

Just to be clear, the Carrera Crossfire and Vulcan have the torque sensor and the cheaper Vengeance has a cadence sensor. The torque sensor ones seem to give about half maximum power as soon as you start pedalling (also depending on the mode selected in the LCD). The power algorithm then seems to be related to speed and possibly pedal effort. The torque sensor senses both pedal force and rotation speed.

I would recommend only the vengeance for commuting because the torque sensor is not robust against dirty/wet cycling; however, the Vengeance has the smallest battery, so it will only last for the journey one way, i.e. 30 miles.

It was the Vengeance that I tried most (£850 - 20%) = £680.
It had 3 power levels controlled by a single button with LED's + a hidden walk button below.
The power kicked in/out with slightest pedal action and I had to continually change the power level around town to low for tight/slow work and high when the traffic moved. I found it very annoying that you couldn't tweak it either up or down without conscious effort. To go down in power from the mid setting, you had to increase it until it wrapped around and passed the high setting to get back to low. I found it a distraction and not as intuitive/tactile as as throttle that can go in either direction. It's really convinced me that the handle 'twist & pedal' power control (throttle) would be better (but that's only based on a short trial of 3 bikes).
The range of gears wasn't there to be able to ride it like a 'normal' bike when I feel up to it. (Only one gear on the front chain set). For commuting, most of my previous cycling on a flat would have been in top gear to go above 15mph & on a steep hill I would have been in a very low gear. These gears just didn't exist on this bike so you are very reliant on the motor on hills and would have to pedal at a ridiculous cadence to achieve 20mph.
I was hoping an electric bike would assist but no constrain me!
'Takes the shackles of my feet so I can dance'....
Based only on the bikes I've tried, It's looking like a conversion may be the way forward but I've not made a decision yet.

 

[Benjahmin]

The Vengeance is specced as a mountain bike, of course the gearing isn't right for 20mph. Sounds like you need to look at hybrid/city bikes.
The technique I use for traffic/tight spots is to keep my hand on the rear brake. It has a micro switch to cut the power so the smallest pull (brake not actually on) and power is off. It's an e-bike, you have to adapt your riding.
I have a Crossfire that I converted, the big ring on the front is 48t as opposed to 42t on the vengeance. My cadence spins out at around 30mph, though, being an old git, that's only downhill these days. Good job there's plenty of those where I live.

 

[Woosh]

The power kicked in/out with slightest pedal action and I had to continually change the power level around town to low for tight/slow work and high when the traffic moved. I found it very annoying that you couldn't tweak it either up or down without conscious effort.

the Woosh Karoo has a solution for that.
Leave assist level at 0. The bike does not assist but the twist and go throttle is activated.
Whenever you need help, just twist the throttle. The assist levels 1-6 work like normally expected.

http://wooshbikes.co.uk/?karoo

 

[Cyclezee]

I would never do that when answering questions. It wasn't clear that was what you were asking, perhaps because you were asking multiple questions with each post.

That Ezee system was never very common, especially because throttles were being phased out with the changes in the law. Even they stopped supplying it, instead having a cadence sensor to ensure rotation and 9 level switched power system.
.

FYI Tony, some 2018 eZee models now have a BB torque sensor with 8 levels of assist + throttle instead of the previous post 2012 models with cadence sensor and throttle which had 6 levels of assist. There are several other upgrades too e.g. controllers, displays etc.

Perhaps the biggest news from eZee in 2018 is that production is scheduled to move from China to a new factory just outside Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

 

[flecc]

FYI Tony, some 2018 eZee models now have a BB torque sensor with 8 levels of assist + throttle instead of the previous post 2012 models with cadence sensor and throttle which had 6 levels of assist. There are several other upgrades too e.g. controllers, displays etc.

Perhaps the biggest news from eZee in 2018 is that production is scheduled to move from China to a new factory just outside Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

Thanks, good to learn that eZee are still very active. The new system wouldn't suit the OP, he ideally needs one of the old eZee models switched to pedelec so he could just twirl the pedals and twist the throttle.
.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

It was the Vengeance that I tried most (£850 - 20%) = £680.
It had 3 power levels controlled by a single button with LED's + a hidden walk button below.
The power kicked in/out with slightest pedal action and I had to continually change the power level around town to low for tight/slow work and high when the traffic moved. I found it very annoying that you couldn't tweak it either up or down without conscious effort. To go down in power from the mid setting, you had to increase it until it wrapped around and passed the high setting to get back to low. I found it a distraction and not as intuitive/tactile as as throttle that can go in either direction. It's really convinced me that the handle 'twist & pedal' power control (throttle) would be better (but that's only based on a short trial of 3 bikes).
The range of gears wasn't there to be able to ride it like a 'normal' bike when I feel up to it. (Only one gear on the front chain set). For commuting, most of my previous cycling on a flat would have been in top gear to go above 15mph & on a steep hill I would have been in a very low gear. These gears just didn't exist on this bike so you are very reliant on the motor on hills and would have to pedal at a ridiculous cadence to achieve 20mph.
I was hoping an electric bike would assist but no constrain me!
'Takes the shackles of my feet so I can dance'....
Based only on the bikes I've tried, It's looking like a conversion may be the way forward but I've not made a decision yet.

The Vengeance uses a cheapo speed control controller that gives full power as soon as you pedal. Those sort of controllers are quite common on very cheap electric bikes and older designs. You should be looking for a bike that has a current control controller. The control system is an important part of an ebike, but the trouble is most dealers don't understand these things. Thats why you always get advice to try several different bikes.

These effects are nothing to do with the type of pedal sensor or motor used. Instead they depend on the power control algoriths in the controller.

 

[Brummie]

If i'm not mistaken, it appears that there are EAPC's with varying shackles and methods to modify/mitigate against them, but not everything's coming together on a plate (sorry - been watching master-chef)!
So why would I want to buy a compromised and expensive EAPC's when I can take a perfectly good unshackled £200 strong hybrid and add a legal £300 throttle controlled swytch kit in 10 mins? (subject to testing)
I'm not saying I'm right - I welcome comments/opinions please?

 

[flecc]

So why would I want to buy a compromised and expensive EAPC's when I can take a perfectly good unshackled £200 strong hybrid and add a legal £300 throttle controlled swytch kit in 10 mins? (subject to testing)
I'm not saying I'm right - I welcome comments/opinions please?

If you can try one, like it and it will do what you want, there's nothing wrong with that kit option.

If you can't try one first there's an element of guesswork of course, if it's powerful enough for you or if you like the way it works or not.
.

 

[Nealh]

I prefer the torque sensing controllers like the KT that give more power in each assist level selected, the speed is quite linear and progressive. A gentle pedal rotation soon has you moving along and if you want a bit more just pedal harder.
Throttle use is good too, if careful you can feather the throttle a little but mostly it will give full speed. Parameter setting P4 #1 only activates the throttle with a rotation of the pas removing any accidental use as when it is set as #0 with P4 and active all the time.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

So why would I want to buy a compromised and expensive EAPC's when I can take a perfectly good unshackled £200 strong hybrid and add a legal £300 throttle controlled swytch kit in 10 mins?

Because you'll wake up and realise that it was a dream. Real life isn't as simple as that.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I prefer the torque sensing controllers like the KT that give more power in each assist level selected, the speed is quite linear and progressive. A gentle pedal rotation soon has you moving along and if you want a bit more just pedal harder.

Sorry to be pedantic, but just to make it clear, normal KT controllers are "torque simulation", not torque sensing. "Torque simulation" is the Chinese translation of current control. Basically, it can give you a nice gentle start, like some torque control systems have, which is where the phrase "torque simulation" came from.

 

[Brummie]

Because you'll wake up and realise that it was a dream. Real life isn't as simple as that.

I expect so, but is there anything that experienced people like yourself have the foresight to see in terms of what's obviously wrong with the idea?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I expect so, but is there anything that experienced people like yourself have the foresight to see in terms of what's obviously wrong with the idea?

Nothing is as straight-forward as they show in the installation videos. There are all sorts of different shaped forks with different drop-outs. Some have the drop-outs inboard, some in the middle and some outboard. Some have dimples, some don't. Most require some sort of filing to make the motor fit.

Next is to find space for a throttle on the bars. There are many types of throttle, brake levers and shifters. It's norally always a problem to find a sitable space for the throttle.

Then there's the pedal sensor. There are so many types and lengths of bottom bracket, and left and right hand pedal sensors.

Finally, the cable routing. For a front motor, you have to find a way from the forks to the head-stock without causing the wire to bend when you steer whilst still allowing unhindered steering.

I've seen many 10 miute installations. They work at first (mostly), so people don't knw what they did wrong, then, sometime in the future, their drop-outs pop or they get hall sensor error because a wire broke inside the motor cable, or they get other display errors because a wire is broken in the display harness, or the pedal sensor doesn't work becase they pulled the cable-tie too tight.

 

[flecc]

As d8veh says, and the first review on their website confirms. Here's the extract:

The kit comes in a box, wheel needs a tyre and a tube. I purchased an inline brake kit compatible with my bike, a torque arm and a battery separately. Installation took about 3h, but more than 1h was spent removing the brake cables from the bike to fit the inline sensors. I needed another hour to check the spokes, fit the tyre and balance the wheel. The rest was a matter of plugging cables and use cable tyres to secure them (they're much longer that needed for my bike, but I can understand that). It'd be useful if there were some pictures of "finished" bikes in the website to see where is the best place to run the cables, secure them with ties, etc. I had to improvise a bit. After one week using my converted bike, it's all good. The controller needed some tweaks and I had to find its manual online on my own, since the link provided was for another model.
.

 

[Woosh]

I expect so, but is there anything that experienced people like yourself have the foresight to see in terms of what's obviously wrong with the idea?

torque and range.
you pay real money for those two things.

and take the marketing spiel with a pinch of salt. All else equal, a 15AH battery will go twice as far as a 7.5AH one.

 

[Nealh]

Sorry to be pedantic, but just to make it clear, normal KT controllers are "torque simulation", not torque sensing. "Torque simulation" is the Chinese translation of current control. Basically, it can give you a nice gentle start, like some torque control systems have, which is where the phrase "torque simulation" came from.

Pedant no.
My poor choice of wording .