Oxygen Battery on test

garrence · Jul 26, 2010

Old Timer said:
Used with some common sense I reckon 80 mile days are within reach now

I got 80 miles from my last charge, using some power up hills and none downhill (not much flat around here). I ran it down to some way into single red light but not totally drained.

NRG · Jul 26, 2010

Sounds like the cells that emissionsfree is selling over on ES....

Oxygen Bicycles · Jul 26, 2010

I normally get around 50 miles on my one but I always pedal and keep full throttle on however London is fairly flat and not that many hills here. On the other hand I'm quite heavy and always carry least one pannier full of crap. So 80 miles it's really a good result I have to say. I've never tried to go on pedelec only but I guess I should get around 60 miles on it.

With regs to the battery inside. Yes there are 10 cells very long and flat just wrapped in the protective foil. It's all soft compound cells that unlike many others use steel or alloy cases for each cell. It has also another benefit as our pack is only approx 3.5kg with 13Ah. TBH I'm really pleased that Safty started making electric vehicle packs now and they dragged all the technology from military and aviation series into ebikes which performs in an absolutely outstanding way.

onmebike · Jul 26, 2010

Oxygen Bicycles said:
I normally get around 50 miles on my one but I always pedal and keep full throttle on however London is fairly flat and not that many hills here. On the other hand I'm quite heavy and always carry least one pannier full of crap. So 80 miles it's really a good result I have to say. I've never tried to go on pedelec only but I guess I should get around 60 miles on it.

With regs to the battery inside. Yes there are 10 cells very long and flat just wrapped in the protective foil. It's all soft compound cells that unlike many others use steel or alloy cases for each cell. It has also another benefit as our pack is only approx 3.5kg with 13Ah. TBH I'm really pleased that Safty started making electric vehicle packs now and they dragged all the technology from military and aviation series into ebikes which performs in an absolutely outstanding way.

Inside the pack is an eleven terminal balance charge connector which is taped over? Although the bms manages charging can this connector still be used with an appropriate balance charger? Just curious.

Tony.

Oxygen Bicycles · Jul 26, 2010

Hi Tony,

Yes it's a very good question that you raised. Actually it's not only our pack that has this connector but most Lithium packs have something similar like this. Unfortunately I have to say I'm not sure how to answer your question. Maybe our Guru will know the answer to that???

so as usual when we are in trouble we will be with impatience awaiting for Tony's (Flecc) reply

onmebike · Jul 26, 2010

Oxygen Bicycles said:
Hi Tony,

Yes it's a very good question that you raised. Actually it's not only our pack that has this connector but most Lithium packs have something similar like this. Unfortunately I have to say I'm not sure how to answer your question. Maybe our Guru will know the answer to that???

so as usual when we are in trouble we will be with impatience awaiting for Tony's (Flecc) reply

Lipo's used for R/C use these connectors, I'm guessing that in this particular case the BMS being connected to the cells may interfere with the use of this connector. Probably little point in the manufacturer removing it though.
What are the C ratings for these cells and are they available individually for self construction?

flecc · Jul 26, 2010

Oxygen Bicycles said:
so as usual when we are in trouble we will be with impatience awaiting for Tony's (Flecc) reply

Sorry, I have to disappoint this time, I don't know that connector arrangement, mainly knowing dedicated bike batteries which don't have universal connectors. I think that as onmebike says, any external item connected may possibly conflict with the BMS, or vice versa.
.

onmebike · Jul 26, 2010

Unlike ebike batteries, r/c Lipo's generally have no built in protection. Cell balancing is done by the charger and cut off is controlled by the electronic speed controller. The balance cable in the Oxygen battery will probably be wired, first cell negative, then the positive of the first cell doubles as negative for the second cell and so on. So for ten cells there are eleven wires.
The chargers vary in that some charge and monitor through this connector alone, others monitor cell and overall output. Earlier Lipo's hadn't the luxury of cell balancing and thats where the fire/explosion hazard first raised its head.
Thats not to say they are 100% safe now. Two friends have had serious fires through charging Lipo's. The dangers are generally in over discharging/charging, I'm suspicious faulty chargers were the cause.
I store mine in steel ammo boxes just in case. Fire retardant bags are available for charging and storing.
When Lipo's first arrived on the r/c scene, a local model shop owner tried to impress on me their ability to be charged by any suitable psu, connecting an 11.1v pack to a 12v 600ma psu. Some while later there was an almighty bang and we found the battery in flames and a huge burn on his dining table.

Blew it · Jul 26, 2010

Coincidentally, Advance batteries use similar size pouch cells as Safty, not necessarily the same cell manufacturer. These also have unused ribbon connectors in them.

garrence · Jul 26, 2010

Old Timer said:
Blimey! I was thinking 80miles with my two batteries combined ( the Alien front hub motor battery and the Oxygen)

It was my deliberate attempt to get the range up that far. I'm intending to cycle from Sheffield to Leicester (76 miles) to visit friends and don't want to run out of juice by Derby

The route I was doing had steep uphills then long slight downhills so that might have helped.

Blew it · Jul 26, 2010

a banger in the bonfire

An interesting thread.

Earlier this year, we discovered that Ezee are using the same Advanced lithium array as Wisper, possibly with different management systems. As I understand, Ezee use the 02micro power management system, which would explain the ribbon connecter. If the ribbon connecter is not used, it means a simpler method is used for cell balancing. After reading this thread, I now think there is a third user of this array.

It was Old Timers description of the array fitted to the Safty battery fitted to the Oxygen E-mate that started me thinking (looks beautiful in white by the way). "Ah" you say "the Safty battery is only 13 ah". but is it?.

Battery warranty.

So, how can a supplier give a reliable two year guarantee on a battery, well, he could try berating the cell manucturers to improve longevity. Considering the R & D guys are already working flat out on that, there really wouldn't be much point. But there is another way. Understate the actual capacity of the battery in the machines specification.

If you fit a 14 ah battery and then understate it as 13 ah, you stand a better chance of guaranteeing a minimum 85% capacity after two years.

You might then say "Why pay more money for a 14 ah battery, but cost the machine based on a 13 ah?". I think you already know the answer to that!!

Oxygen Bicycles · Jul 26, 2010

Blew it said:
Coincidentally, Advance batteries use similar size pouch cells as Safty, not necessarily the same cell manufacturer. These also have unused ribbon connectors in them.

Not really coincident, Advance battery use totally different approach of running cells, they also use the metal cases in each cell what makes them overall heavier than Safty cells. Safty is using soft compund cells, fairly long and very flat whereas Advanced have thicker but shorter cell design. The ribbon connector as mentioned before is used in most lithium based packs so it's not just Safty or Advanced. Overall however Safty has nothing to do with Advanced. Before we decided to choose the battery manufacturer we tested several different manufacturers and certainly the best ones we tried were Safty, Advanced. The average quality were King-Co cells originally used on the first Oxygens two years ago but if I can call the worst ones then I can say Zhejang Zhenlong is absolutely awful. The old Phyliion was not much better too (not speaking for new series).

History.
It took us a long time to choose the right packs for our Oxygens. Obviously everyone wants a good batteries but we rather tried to listen to the stories of all of those manufacturers. Both Advanced and Safty represent a great quality, both Advanced and Safty were producing great quality Li-Pos when other were still making ordinary Li-ions. Both of these manufacturers have a great products but the story is that Advanced from the beginning was hitting the mass market devices whereas Safty was making batteries for military applications and aircraft's. Safty has just recently moved to the mass market having realised how great potential its got. Is Safty falling behind Advanced? I would say no, it's certainly smaller company but it needs time now to create awarness of its presence in the mass market devices.

Oxygen Bicycles · Jul 26, 2010

Blew it said:
An interesting thread.

Earlier this year, we discovered that Ezee are using the same Advanced lithium array as Wisper, possibly with different management systems. As I understand, Ezee use the 02micro power management system, which would explain the ribbon connecter. If the ribbon connecter is not used, it means a simpler method is used for cell balancing. After reading this thread, I now think there is a third user of this array.

It was Old Timers description of the array fitted to the Safty battery fitted to the Oxygen E-mate that started me thinking (looks beautiful in white by the way). "Ah" you say "the Safty battery is only 13 ah". but is it?.

Battery warranty.

So, how can a supplier give a reliable two year guarantee on a battery, well, he could try berating the cell manucturers to improve longevity. Considering the R & D guys are already working flat out on that, there really wouldn't be much point. But there is another way. Understate the actual capacity of the battery in the machines specification.

If you fit a 14 ah battery and then understate it as 13 ah, you stand a better chance of guaranteeing a minimum 85% capacity after two years.

You might then say "Why pay more money for a 14 ah battery, but cost the machine based on a 13 ah?". I think you already know the answer to that!!

Hi Blew It,

Our pack is sadly only 13Ah and certainly not 14Ah. I wish we could have 14Ah but that simply couldn't fit since our case is a lot smaller than the Wisper one. We are actually working now on the new case that could handle bigger cells so who knows maybe 15Ah from the next year

.

I think David's pack is 13.7Ah but here he's fully justified to round it up to 14Ah. Your proposed tactic sounds very smart but its certainly not the case with our packs, we are only 13ah and tha's 100% guaranteed. The long range which some members get here is mainly dictated by the CPF (Controlled Power Flow) and the energy dumping prevention whenever possible.

best regards

Andrew

Blew it · Jul 27, 2010

Hi Andrew,

Oh dear!, that sort of reduces my posting to nothing more than the product of an overly fertile imagination.

Anyway, thanks for your informative reply.

I should mention though, the latest Advanced batteries are constructed with pouch cells, certainly not metal clad.

As I previously mentioned, the Oxygen E-mate is a handsome machine, and I'm sure it will provide a very good launchpad for Safty batteries into EV propulsion.

All the best
Bob

Oxygen Bicycles · Jul 27, 2010

Hi Bob,

I have to say when we were looking at Advanced cells those were still in metal cases and certainly can not speak for the latest models since those could have changed. Maybe we should have a look at those once again since two major players are using them there must be a good reasons behind it.

Wisper Bikes · Jul 30, 2010

I need your help!

Buying the best battery available is a constantly moving target!

We have employed a full time electronics engineer based in Shanghai to help with the quest to find the best e-bike battery, and our new 2011 bikes will come with standard 11 or 16A batteries. Rather than the existing 8 and 14A.

The problem we have found with ever increasing battery capacity is they get less and less reliable, we have tried cells that will give is up to 21Ah (New Panasonic) but under testing found them to be next to useless. We all need to be very careful when chasing the most powerful battery available.

This is where I need some feedback. For two years we have been following the progress of LiFePo4 batteries and have looked at lot of real duds! However we have just finished testing a very high quality 36V 14A LiFePo4 pack that fits nicely into our larger battery box. The weight is 1KG more than our existing 14A battery. As you all know LiFePo4 does come with some rather nice advantages over Li Ion including the claim that they will last 3 times as long and have better environmental credentials.

The question is would pedelec riders prefer to use the heavier 500Wh LifePo4 or the higher powered 575Wh Li Ion? They are about the same price.

Thanks for your help.

Regards

David

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