PiCycle

[Mussels]

You may not like the design, I may or may not not but in the modern world, as Audi say in their advertising, form is as important as function.

In so far as I care whether anyone else uses an electric bike, which ultimately I don't of course, they at present have an image with the young of being for old folk, a kind of Zimmer frame machine. The PiCycle does not look like anything an old person would ride and that to me is its strength. It is an uncompromising electric design, not an ad hoc adaptation. If electric bikes are to thrive, they must have young users, not old geezers like me.

I have long played guitar both classical and blues. My classical guitar is a beauty but my other guitar (was) a Fender Stratocaster, 50 years ago an astonishly radical departure and - yes -singular design. It was derided and criticized as a gimmick. It is today the standard electric guitar played by some of the finest players all over the world.

I'm not saying the PiCycle will be that, I doubt it. But I think it is important to be open to new things even if one personally doesn't like them.

Just my take and no criticism intended.

Happy new year all. May your batteries stay charged and your tyres puncture free, your chains in adjustment and you frames not shaped like 'C'

I just can't see teenagers looking at that without much pointing and laughing, they bikes that look fast and menacing (for reasons I don't quite understand teenagers in south London seem to love my Wisper and I get admiring comments from local 'yoofs').
Cars where form comes way before function do sell as the number of 4x4s on the road testify but they are mostly attractive and I just don't see it in this bike.

 

[Straylight]

As I've said many times before, originality and innovation is what drives progress. Such a bold design departure can only be a good thing in my book, as it causes everybody to think more latteraly about how to improve existing products, similar to what Dyson did for the vacuum cleaner. Now there's a thought - how would Dyson redesign the ebike?

Personally I rather like the curve, part of the reason I bought my Wisper, and I agree with Lemmy that the aesthetic is very important.

 

[flecc]

I agree that form is important Lemmy, but that should not be at the cost of function. It clearly is with the PiCycle, far heavier than it need be, mainly because of the arch frame gimmick, the shape needing reinforcement through added material due to it's lack of bracing. It also loses practicality in other areas, load carrying for example.

Unfortunately for the fashion concious, the basic diamond frame bicycle design reached virtual perfection long, long ago, so departures invariably entail loss of efficiency.

I'm happy to see the PiCycle on the market since the more consumer choice, the better, but I doubt it will be around for long before it joins the huge number of previous attempts to be different for difference sake, consigned to oblivion.
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[Straylight]

In the videos, the designer says that one of the reasons for the arch is that it keeps the number of joints and welds to a minnimum, and so the entire frame is pretty much one extrusion done in about 30s. I rather like the philosophy of such simplicity.

 

[Straylight]

for reasons I don't quite understand teenagers in south London seem to love my Wisper and I get admiring comments from local 'yoofs'.

Well one of the first thoughts I had on seeing the 905 in the flesh was that it does look rather like a BMX, so maybe it's this that they are responding to?

Also the black frame is such a classic, that it can't help but look 'cool'.

 

[Mussels]

In the videos, the designer says that one of the reasons for the arch is that it keeps the number of joints and welds to a minnimum, and so the entire frame is pretty much one extrusion done in about 30s. I rather like the philosophy of such simplicity.

If the bike didn't have many welds then I might be inclined to agree, but there are still a lot of welds so I think the designer is clutching at straws. One extrusion maybe but it is then cut in two to provide the steering so again the simplicity is lost.
If it weighed the same as similar spec ebikes then I'd be nicer about it but I fail to see anything good about the arch design.

 

[Straylight]

True, but as he says the concept is still a work in progress, so doubtless they'll be future refinements. I just like the simple, uncluttered flow of the thing, and the fact that it carries such a huge battery.

 

[Mussels]

Such a bold design departure can only be a good thing in my book, as it causes everybody to think more latteraly about how to improve existing products, similar to what Dyson did for the vacuum cleaner. Now there's a thought - how would Dyson redesign the ebike?

Hopefully he would redesign it much better than he redesigned the washing machine - bigger, heavier, twice as expensive and no better performing than standard washing machines.

 

[eddieo]

As I've said many times before, originality and innovation is what drives progress. Such a bold design departure can only be a good thing in my book, as it causes everybody to think more latteraly about how to improve existing products, similar to what Dyson did for the vacuum cleaner. Now there's a thought - how would Dyson redesign the ebike?

Personally I rather like the curve, part of the reason I bought my Wisper, and I agree with Lemmy that the aesthetic is very important.

Our cleaner cleans in many houses and always says do not get rid of your vacuum it is the best! It is a very simple £50 Henry style blob that is light and easy to use.....

why try and reinvent the wheel? The best E bikes will probably be a carbon triangle with battery in that frame, weighing less then 20kg, with better battery and motor/control technology...That is where the focus should be, on the detail.

The Pi is Pure Californian silliness......Just because Americans look a bit like us, speak a bit like us, they are really from a different planet (this is true I have nearly watched all of Battlestar Galactica)

 

[Straylight]

Hopefully he would redesign it much better than he redesigned the washing machine - bigger, heavier, twice as expensive and no better performing than standard washing machines.

Yeah, but have you seen the new desk fan? Extraordinary concept . Maybe his ebike would be part bike, part ground effect plane - with integral cyclone power, of course

Oh, and it'd have to provide a public service by sweeping the roads clean as it went...

 

[flecc]

If the bike didn't have many welds then I might be inclined to agree, but there are still a lot of welds so I think the designer is clutching at straws. One extrusion maybe but it is then cut in two to provide the steering so again the simplicity is lost.
If it weighed the same as similar spec ebikes then I'd be nicer about it but I fail to see anything good about the arch design.

It's worse than that even. Just look at the lash-ups used to provide a position for the pedal shaft or foot rests to be supported, simply because the arch gimmick takes the frame line away from where it's needed. The single straight shaft frame concept often used on folders is preferable in every respect to that arch.

It's clear to me that the PiCycle designer's only motivation was to be different, and as I remarked above, different is not a valid design objective.
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[Straylight]

different is not a valid design objective.

Not for it's own sake, I agree, but it can be a useful starting point. With our current wealth we have the capacity to experiment, and explore diverse concepts, rather than being tied to linear development out of necessity.

 

[flecc]

I agree with that, indeed it's arguable that different is the only possible start point since same is not invention.

The problem is that designers are humans with all their accompanying foibles, and once one has an idea they are often unwilling to give it up. All too often they fail to view their notion in a truly critical light, some even mortgaging themselves into debt and bankruptcy in order to persist with a flawed concept.

What any designer needs to do once they've had an idea and before they spend any money is to examine it critically, and preferably expose the idea to an independent knowledgeable person or persons for appraisal. Designers employed in business are usually exposed to this procedure, it's the private designer who usually falls into the trap of skipping these vital steps.
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[Mussels]

Yeah, but have you seen the new desk fan? Extraordinary concept . Maybe his ebike would be part bike, part ground effect plane - with integral cyclone power, of course

Oh, and it'd have to provide a public service by sweeping the roads clean as it went...

That fan is not a new idea and has been used in industrial jobs for a long time, it's not been used in retail as nobody ever felt the need for a non buffeting fan. Well they didn't feel the need until the marketing men told them so, personally I only notice it if I put my face right in front of the fan.

 

[lemmy]

What's nice in a market system like ours is that this guy can try out his concept and if it works well enough and looks nice enough, people buy it. If not, they don't but it may lead to new ideas and thinking. And it costs others nothing.

I really like people who try new things - efficiency is not everything. Much as I like my Panasonic system pedelac, it's a bolt on item and looks it. An electric bike built from the ground up as that is what intrigues me.

I'm with Straylight on this one. The designer should be encouraged. The British used to be in the forefront of innovation and ingenuity - still are in F1 - but these days we often discourage rather than encourage.

 

[flecc]

I'm with Straylight on this one. The designer should be encouraged. The British used to be in the forefront of innovation and ingenuity - still are in F1 - but these days we often discourage rather than encourage.

Believe it or not, I'm also with you both on this particular thing, but encouragement of poor design isn't a good thing, rather than doing good it can harm the designer. For example out of kindness, relatives and friends are often responsible for encouraging would be inventors to pursue hopeless ideas.

An electric bike built from the ground up as that is what intrigues me.

Odd though it might seem, this threatens to be a contradiction in terms. Our vehicles are electric assist bicycles, in other words, bicycles with added motor assistance, and we've long known what constitutes a good bicycle.

A departure from that is a different kind of motor vehicle with pedal assistance. Nothing wrong with that of course, but if an efficient bicycle is wanted for our assist systems, we've already got the best designs there can be. That you feel they're something only old people ride isn't really relevant, in fact it's not even true that the design is the problem. The young don't ride bikes much for many reasons, amongst other things they aren't thought cool and they impede the personal social interaction that the young find so important and integral to their lives. Walking, public transport and private cars serve their needs far better than bikes ever can.

I've no objection to less efficient alternatives to current e-bikes existing, indeed it's good for satisfying all tastes, but in a healthy market they should be open to criticism for their faults without it being thought negativity. It's in fact quite the reverse, positivity in the interests of good design.
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[Mussels]

I don't think we have the best design possible but given current rules and materials we are unlikely to see a better design. Maybe something along the lines of a Moulton would work better especially for battery housing. With ebikes not having huge research budgets then big leaps are unlikely, some I have liked but would not consider as moving away from standard parts makes it very expensive.

 

[flecc]

I don't think we have the best design possible

For a complete e-bike I'm sure that's true. I was confining my remarks to the bicycle part which reached it's pinnacle many decades ago, but the adaptation to e-bike has further to go before that's perfected.

At the moment there isn't even agreement on exactly what constitutes an e-bike, the market tending to be split between two differing views.
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[eddieo]

e bike manufacturers seem incapable of even designing an easily detachable waterproof power connection for a wheel to enable easier maintenance/tyre/tube changing. But I guess this would not get you on you tube but an upside down banana does

The devil is in the detail

 

[lemmy]

I think the one thing I'd like to see is an integrated design, the electrics designed in as part of the structure as the engine is in an F1 car.

The most beautiful bikes for me are the very slim mimimalist ones that are around at the moment or the Tour de France types. But the moment you bolt on the pedelec bits, that aesthetic is lost.

Around 1984 I met a top Honda executive outside Comerford's in Surbiton (when they were motorcycle dealers) who was doing a survey of riders picking up their machines from servicing. I had a 750 four at the time. He asked me what changes I wanted made to the bike. I said, twice the power and half the weight and we both laughed.

They have come remarkably close to that though I said it as an impossible dream, hence the laughter.

It seems to me that this is somewhat what could happen with pedelecs but battery development is holds it back for now.

I'd like single speed bike with battery in the slim frame, small crank motor, heated hand grips and lighting (and maybe GPS) services from the bike battery. Power would be at its maximum from pulling away and decrease as initial inertia was overcome, settling and then tailing off as present Panasonic system and within the law.

If someone will make me one, there's a drink in it for them.