Regulation in EU countries

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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I am still of the opinion that Maximum Continuous Power is a perfectly valid motor specification which can be calculated based upon the thermal failure point of the insulation on the motor coil windings and the motor's ability to dissapate heat (Maximum power dissipation). (as per my post here... http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/38748-post58.html )
Which fits with my view that the majority on e-bikes do not conform to either the 200 or 250 Watt law since they are capable of operating almost indefinitely at above those levels, and certainly for the duration of a full battery charge.

The maximum continuous power according to your measure is valid as a motor specification as you say. The question is whether that accords with the legal requirement. For example, the bike is supposed to be plated with the power, i.e. system not motor, so that implies the power it can deliver to the road rather than a measure of the motor only. And in turn as I've said above, many torque sensor systems cannot be defined in the absence of the law specifying what a rider power is.
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Fecn

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 28, 2008
491
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Warlingham, Surrey
The maximum continuous power according to your measure is valid as a motor specification as you say. The question is whether that accords with the legal requirement. For example, the bike is supposed to be plated with the power, i.e. system not motor, so that implies the power it can deliver to the road rather than a measure of the motor only. And in turn as I've said above, many torque sensor systems cannot be defined in the absence of the law specifying what a rider power is.
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Word-for-word, it seems to say the plate should show continuous motor power rather than overall system power.

"The Pedal Cycles (Construction and Use) Regulations [2]; also specify requirements for EAPCs. These include a requirement to display a plate showing the manufacturer, the nominal voltage of the battery, and the continuous rated output of the motor."

I think the important thing is that it's actually possible to test in a fairly meaningful way the MCP of a motor in a lab environment, which does give a route to prosecute those who are flagrantly in violation of the rules and just changing the sticky labels to say 250W regardless of the true MCP.
 

Tiberius

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 9, 2007
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Somerset
Trying to define the max power in terms of thermal dissipations is tempting, but ultimately is still doesn't give the answer.

The problem is that it only works for a given set of conditions. If you just change the speed for instance, the relationship between power in, power out and power lost as heat changes.

I don't think the regulation even defines whether the 250 W limit is electrical input power or mechanical output power, so until a basic thing like that is settled there's little point in getting into finer details.

Nick
 

Fecn

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 28, 2008
491
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Warlingham, Surrey
I don't think the regulation even defines whether the 250 W limit is electrical input power or mechanical output power, so until a basic thing like that is settled there's little point in getting into finer details.

It says 'continous rated output power' in the regs.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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Word-for-word, it seems to say the plate should show continuous motor power rather than overall system power.

"The Pedal Cycles (Construction and Use) Regulations [2]; also specify requirements for EAPCs. These include a requirement to display a plate showing the manufacturer, the nominal voltage of the battery, and the continuous rated output of the motor."
I am fully aware aware of the regulations, but what is a motor? This matter is nothing like as simple as it first appears as Tiberius has also implied. I'll use the same example again:

The Panasonic, Yamaha and a couple of other units are just that, complete power units which incorporate a motor. The motor doesn't have a measurable power in isolation, and since the rider actuated torque sensor is also incorporated, the whole unit doesn't have a legally definable power of any sort. And until the law in the EU or UK defines what a rider power is, that's the position. All that can happen is what Panasonic have already done, define a purely nominal power to match the law, it having no actual existence by their own admission of the much greater theoretical maximum.

It doesn't matter what can be defined by certain applied engineering circumstances. Unless they are specifically defined in law, those measurements are meaningless.
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Wisper Bikes

Trade Member
Apr 11, 2007
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Thanks!

Thanks Flecc, it seems to be as vague as I had imagined.

So lets make hay whilst the sun shines, I think the new powerful 250w Wisper is just around the corner!

Best regards David

PS the 806 folder will be on the next container, we have had a few difficulties with the controller but all sorted now, so I will bring one to you to try in about four weeks.

Best regards David
 

Fecn

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 28, 2008
491
2
Warlingham, Surrey
The Panasonic, Yamaha and a couple of other units are just that, complete power units which incorporate a motor. The motor doesn't have a measurable power in isolation, and since the rider actuated torque sensor is also incorporated, the whole unit doesn't have a legally definable power of any sort.
I see exactly what you're saying here and know full well that the panasonic motor can deliver peak power of around ~450W, but the motor within the panasonic unit could always be isolated and powered in isolation from the torque sensor (as A2B did recently to revive a dead LaFree). At least.. that's what I would do if I were trying to prove that it was outside the letter of the law (which hopefully nobody will do as I rather like my bike).
 
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the_killjoy

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 26, 2008
822
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The problem from the prosecution point of view would be proving that their lab. test was in fact valid. I think it is fair to say that an 'expert witness' would have great fun for the defence.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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I see exactly what you're saying here and know full well that the panasonic motor can deliver peak power of around ~450W, but the motor within the panasonic unit could always be isolated and powered in isolation from the torque sensor (as A2B did recently to revive a dead LaFree). At least.. that's what I would do if I were trying to prove that it was outside the letter of the law (which hopefully nobody will do as I rather like my bike).
Yes, it's exactly as The Killjoy as said, there'd be some Rumpole moments in court, to the great embarrassment of anyone who tried what you've said. :D

It can easily be shown that the Panasonic power unit is intended to power a bike, and that it is to be used as supplied. In law that is the motor, the whole unit, since courts are non-technical and will happily accept that concept. Any attempt to operate the integral motor only separately in another way would be a technique resulting in measurements unacceptable to a defence and the court, regardless of how accurate they were.

The alternative of applying a torque force to measure the motor output is what would bring the Rumpole moments:

Barrister: I see, you put in over 300 Watts to get 400 Watts out!

Witness: Yes.

Barrister: Seems a bit pointless, surely then the motor was only producing the 100 Watts difference?

Witness attempts to explain the technicalities and is then reminded he's there to answer questions, not make speeches.

I've had this power output argument before in the forum, and the essence is that it's only the legal issues that count and the interpretation of the law. Arcane engineering arguments count for nothing in our non-technical courts and no court will make rulings which are technical in nature.

As I said to David, I don't think concern about power outputs is necessary anyway. We are heading into a pedelec and torque sensing future, these being self limiting by their nature. The Lance Armstrongs of this world can exert enough input to achieve maximum output continuously, but they would never buy e-bikes anyway. E-bike customers are people who look for assistance, so are not capable of inputting those high powers on a continuous basis.

An accepted figure for continuous output over 1 hour is 200 Watts for a fully fit male in his prime. At best a fit e-bike customer would probably produce less than that, maybe 150 Watts continuously, resulting in less than 200 continuous Watts from the Panasonic motor over time when in high power mode.

The other power self limiting factor is range. It's all very well dumping a Crystalyte 406 in a bike and a large battery on the back to hurtle up hills, but not much use when it's all over 8 miles or so later. Range is likely to be a major factor for years to come, making high powers take second place.
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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PS the 806 folder will be on the next container, we have had a few difficulties with the controller but all sorted now, so I will bring one to you to try in about four weeks.

Best regards David
Thanks David, no rush though, whenever convenient to you.
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Dynamic Position

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 28, 2009
307
2
I doubt the EU will be up to speed yet on this change of German law. Riese and Muller were going to release their bike around the start of this year but were held up until the Kraftfahrtbundesamt (federal office) made local provision for the higher power of 500 Watts since the bike was prevented by the 250 Watt EU limit until then. I understand the type approval cost is around €3000-4000 for an e-bike like this.

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Flecc,

Its my guess that the EU legislation aims for consistency. E-bike legislation following in the footsteps of legislation for comparative industries that require product certificates e.g. Electrical Equipment for Hazardous Areas.

The EU will act to bring in relevant laws if Riese and Muller or another company decide that they wish to sell their 500 Watt bikes to other European Countries. EU legislation is about facilitating trade amongst member states, once type class approval has been obtained and EU certificate issued other EU countries cannot prevent them from being sold within their own country unless they have approval from the EU. The opt out could be indicated in the UK by a Statutory Instrument Notice.

In theory Wisper Bikes could be the first to the EU market with a 'legal' 500W Wisper providing they meet all the requirments the EU specifies for type approval and obtains an EU certificate. At the end of the day it is down to the user to ensure that their 'legal' e-bike is used and maintained safely/legally in accordance with other relevant National laws.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Yes, that is of course broadly the position, but it's your last sentence which is crucial. The type approval passes the vehicle for use, but it isn't a blanket cover for it's usage. I can make a parallel with cars that have to be type approved, but their drivers must still have a driving licence. E-bikes have a blanket "driving licence" when used in accordance with EU and any local regulations, but that's where high speed and higher power e-bikes fall down in all European countries outside Germany, since there are no blanket EU or national laws to cover their use at present, nor is there ever likely to be. Ergo their use in those circumstances is illegal, and I don't believe opt outs are necessary.

I have a pessimistic view of the chances for UK regulations permitting these extra classes since that simply doesn't fit in with all UK government trends where road traffic administration is concerned. We have a road safety record which is the envy of all other EU countries, bought in part by stringent and enforced regulation, and our government has already outlined their plans for halving our already low road death figure by even more stringent regulation and speed restriction. High speed and high power e-bike regulation flies directly in the face of that policy.
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Wisper Bikes

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Apr 11, 2007
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High Speed

I am being asked for a 500W version not for high speeds, but more to get anyone up practically any hill, and be able to pull a good load of shopping in a trailer. The 500W motor we are looking at will be geared for torque and not high speed so a max of just under 20mph and a restricted 15.5mph would sill apply.

In normal use I would not expect it to use much more than 150W on the flat.

Best regards David
 

ospector

Just Joined
May 26, 2009
3
0
Intriguing concept - 'not legalised yet'
Does that mean they have actually been banned? If not, would they not be legal by default?
The Israeli law defines any vehicle with a motor as a "motorized vehicle", a definition which requires insurance, license and type approval (which don't exist yet). In order to exempt the vehicle from this definition the Minister of Transportation has to set specific regulation (which he hasn't' yet(
 
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eddieo

Banned
Jul 7, 2008
5,070
6
I am being asked for a 500W version not for high speeds, but more to get anyone up practically any hill, and be able to pull a good load of shopping in a trailer. The 500W motor we are looking at will be geared for torque and not high speed so a max of just under 20mph and a restricted 15.5mph would sill apply.

In normal use I would not expect it to use much more than 150W on the flat.

Best regards David
Sounds absolutely ideal........What bike will this be? the 906? when is it likely to be available?

will it require insurance etc........
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,559
30,848
I am being asked for a 500W version not for high speeds, but more to get anyone up practically any hill, and be able to pull a good load of shopping in a trailer. The 500W motor we are looking at will be geared for torque and not high speed so a max of just under 20mph and a restricted 15.5mph would sill apply.

In normal use I would not expect it to use much more than 150W on the flat.

Best regards David
There's a big demand for this type of bike David. Most interested are those who have age and infirmity issues and those hauling or carrying loads in very hilly areas. It's one reason why the Heinzmann kits have persisted despite their dated design, the availability of high torque versions for just this kind of use. There's a clear demand on the fringe of the disability market, most existing e-bikes just not able to measure up sufficiently to the potential demands.
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Wisper Bikes

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Apr 11, 2007
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Sounds absolutely ideal........What bike will this be? the 906? when is it likely to be available?

will it require insurance etc........
The 906 will have the new Dapu motor which is rated at 250W.

I have asked Bafang to look at their new 500W motor to see whether we could rate it as a 250.

If this is the case we will have the bikes in the country before the end of 2009.

You would not need insurance as the bike would be considered a push bike as it would conform to all the necessary regulations.

We will be having some 500W off road kits here by the end of July where you simply change the rear wheel and clamp a 500W controller to the frame then wire up as per the existing controller.

They will cost about £295.00

All the best David
 

eddieo

Banned
Jul 7, 2008
5,070
6
We will be having some 500W off road kits here by the end of July where you simply change the rear wheel and clamp a 500W controller to the frame then wire up as per the existing controller.

They will cost about £295.00

All the best David
WHOOPEE!.....what about the battery? or are you saying this kit would convert a standard 905SE. I suppose the current draw on battery would be significantly more, and range compromised.........