Replacing a spoke - I thought it was easy!!

John L

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 23, 2007
287
6
Hi guys

After developing some problems with my conversion of a 29er MTB I dismantled the build and recreated the bike as originally designed. Lately I have started to think about buying a new ready built ebike but realised that it would be much cheaper to get my old kit up and running again. So maybe someone can help me to solve a few problems.

Following great advice I received here about 2 years ago, the conversion kit was put together with a Q128C motor 700c wheel, controller etc from BMSBattery and a Dolphin 48V 12Ah (samsung 30Q) frame battery from Eclipsebikes (see https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/which-kit.28397/ ).

I was delighted with the build. The problems started with the rear wheel. After several hundred miles the spokes started to work loose and the wheel developed a bit of a buckle. I managed to get a reluctant bike shop to true the wheel for me (essentially they didn't want to touch it as they didn't sell me the bike). That seemed fine and I cycled a little longer. When winter came I put the bike aside in my shed.

Early the following spring (2018) I took the bike out for a spin. After its first short spin I recharged the battery and put it on the bike. The display showed that the battery was only charged to 50%. Ok I thought I'll go for another spin and try a recharge after that. When I was out a rear spoke broke and I wobbled home. Needless to say I couldn't get the battery to charge beyond 50% after that. I put the bike aside for another winter in my shed. In the spring of this year I removed the ebike components and reverted the bike to pedal only.

So today I decided to see if I could resurrect the kit. I found a bike shop online which purported to be able to true or rebuild ebike wheels. When I got to the shop he only offered to sell me spokes for me to fit myself. So I bought 5 in case any more of the originals spokes broke. When I got home I discovered that the spokes were in fact 12 gauge (2.6mm) instead of 13 gauge (2.3mm). They seem to be the right length (250mm). So I thought maybe I could use one anyway. But I found that the broken spoke was in fact a spoke with the head outside the flange (elbow inside). No matter how I try I can't see away of lacing the new spoke into the wheel. I can't get the spoke into the flange and across to the hole in the rim. I'm sure I could be missing something but I can't see a way to do it with removing other spokes (which I'm slow to do for fear of making things worse). Any ideas?

Unfortunately the battery issue might be my own fault as I left it in a damp shed over the winter. I put it on charge today and its still only showing 50% with 55 volts. Anything come to mind in relation to this?

Thanks in advance for any help.

John
 

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Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
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I don't have issues with replacing spokes in situ whether laced from in or out board , sometimes I may undo/loosen an opposing spoke them just gently manipulate said spoke in to position by carefully flexing it without bending it to much. If it has a slight arc in it once in position it will straighten once tensioned.
 
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Nealh

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Aug 7, 2014
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Your battery if it is reading 55v is actually over charged for 48v/13s as it should only be 54.6v max, 13s x 4.2v = 54.6v. The Vol = voltage reading says 55v.
The battery meters on the display can be very inaccurate and doesn't tally with the Vol reading unless you have a 52v/14s battery ?
Stick a meter on the batteries discharge and see what the reading gives.
 
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Andy-Mat

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 26, 2018
2,214
562
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Hi guys

After developing some problems with my conversion of a 29er MTB I dismantled the build and recreated the bike as originally designed. Lately I have started to think about buying a new ready built ebike but realised that it would be much cheaper to get my old kit up and running again. So maybe someone can help me to solve a few problems.

Following great advice I received here about 2 years ago, the conversion kit was put together with a Q128C motor 700c wheel, controller etc from BMSBattery and a Dolphin 48V 12Ah (samsung 30Q) frame battery from Eclipsebikes (see https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/which-kit.28397/ ).

I was delighted with the build. The problems started with the rear wheel. After several hundred miles the spokes started to work loose and the wheel developed a bit of a buckle. I managed to get a reluctant bike shop to true the wheel for me (essentially they didn't want to touch it as they didn't sell me the bike). That seemed fine and I cycled a little longer. When winter came I put the bike aside in my shed.

Early the following spring (2018) I took the bike out for a spin. After its first short spin I recharged the battery and put it on the bike. The display showed that the battery was only charged to 50%. Ok I thought I'll go for another spin and try a recharge after that. When I was out a rear spoke broke and I wobbled home. Needless to say I couldn't get the battery to charge beyond 50% after that. I put the bike aside for another winter in my shed. In the spring of this year I removed the ebike components and reverted the bike to pedal only.

So today I decided to see if I could resurrect the kit. I found a bike shop online which purported to be able to true or rebuild ebike wheels. When I got to the shop he only offered to sell me spokes for me to fit myself. So I bought 5 in case any more of the originals spokes broke. When I got home I discovered that the spokes were in fact 12 gauge (2.6mm) instead of 13 gauge (2.3mm). They seem to be the right length (250mm). So I thought maybe I could use one anyway. But I found that the broken spoke was in fact a spoke with the head outside the flange (elbow inside). No matter how I try I can't see away of lacing the new spoke into the wheel. I can't get the spoke into the flange and across to the hole in the rim. I'm sure I could be missing something but I can't see a way to do it with removing other spokes (which I'm slow to do for fear of making things worse). Any ideas?

Unfortunately the battery issue might be my own fault as I left it in a damp shed over the winter. I put it on charge today and its still only showing 50% with 55 volts. Anything come to mind in relation to this?

Thanks in advance for any help.

John
I cannot help with the spoke, except to say that you probably need to loosen all, undo the ones that get in the way completely, and carefully put them back. But spoke adjustment was always a skilled job, which I have never attempted, because of that. Maybe some Youtube videos might help? Look here:-
Sadly, you may have ruined your battery as Li-ion batteries need to be at least partially charged and not to sink below a certain level. It sounds as though some of your cells have gone below that level to me, and will not charge anymore....But its outright guesswork.
Hopefully I am completely wrong and you can recover them in some way.....
Or the battery electronics is in someway damaged, and its not balancing the cells correctly. Look here:-
regards
Andy
 

John L

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 23, 2007
287
6
I don't have issues with replacing spokes in situ whether laced from inn or out board , sometimes I may undo/loosen an opposing spoke them just gently manipulate said spoke in to position by carefully flexing it without bending it to much. If it has a slight arc in it once in position it will straiten once tensioned.
Thanks Neal. The problem I have is that the spoke goes straight into the hole on the flange and across to the opposing spokes before I can turn it up towards up towards the rim. The overlap of the opposing spokes won't allow me to turn it up. Does that make sense? I feel I missing something but I can't see what.
 

John L

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 23, 2007
287
6
Your battery if it is reading 55v is actually over charged for 48v/13s as it should only be 54.6v max 13s x 4.2v = 54.6v. The Vol = voltage reading says 55v.
The battery meters on the display can be very inaccurate and doesn't tally with the Vol reading unless you have a 52v/14s battery ?
Stick a meter on the batteries discharge and see what the reading gives.
I thought it was a bit high and certainly too high to match the 50% charge indicator. Anyway its academic now as I think I have completely ruined the battery:( I put a meter across the connectors of the battery and bang - nearly lost my thumb!! Thankfully it was only blackened after the flash.... but it looks like one of the connectors from the battery has melted and I can't switch the lcd on at all now. I'm not sure what I did wrong but I think I'm lucky I didn't hurt myself. I'm not feeling confident about dismantling the battery to see if anything else has blown (visual check) and if the connector can be replaced in the housing. What do you think Neal?
 

John L

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 23, 2007
287
6
Thanks Andy. Some say spoke adjustment and wheel rebuilding is doable but to me its a dark art. Thanks for the youtube links. I hadn't seen some of them. I'm a bit deflated after ruining the battery (see above) so I'll have to reconsider how I proceed now.
 

John L

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 23, 2007
287
6
I don't have issues with replacing spokes in situ whether laced from inn or out board , sometimes I may undo/loosen an opposing spoke them just gently manipulate said spoke in to position by carefully flexing it without bending it to much. If it has a slight arc in it once in position it will straiten once tensioned.
Well at least I managed to get the spoke in. It dawned on me that I could get the new spoke between the opposing spokes with a little bending as you suggested. Unfortunately the new spoke is too short by 3mm or so. I can screw the nipple in but I think too much of the thread is showing for it to be secure. So I have to find somewhere to buy 250mm 13 gauge spokes.
 

John L

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 23, 2007
287
6
2mm 14 gauge will be ok, I built a rear hub motor wheel using the ones linked to below and used it for over a decade with no breakages. You can select an exact length in the options box:

British made spokes at SJS
.
Thank you flecc. I wasn't sure if 2mm would be ok. Much better value than what I paid for the wrong ones today!
 

Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
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For an accurate spoke length without knowing the Erd. remove a good one and measure it from the middle or inside of the J bend to the thread, within 1mm is good enough. As flecc says 14g/2mm is plenty good I use Sapim strong and buy them off ebay. 14g are easier to manipulate then 13g.
 
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Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
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I thought it was a bit high and certainly too high to match the 50% charge indicator. Anyway its academic now as I think I have completely ruined the battery:( I put a meter across the connectors of the battery and bang - nearly lost my thumb!! Thankfully it was only blackened after the flash.... but it looks like one of the connectors from the battery has melted and I can't switch the lcd on at all now. I'm not sure what I did wrong but I think I'm lucky I didn't hurt myself. I'm not feeling confident about dismantling the battery to see if anything else has blown (visual check) and if the connector can be replaced in the housing. What do you think Neal?
Show us a pic of the damage, unlikely anything inside is damaged/frazzled though possibly a fuse will have blown if fitted as that's what they are there for, protection.
Sound like you shorted the connector with your probes.

Dont' worry it happens to us all at some stage.
I did something silly tonight as well, I butterfingered a soft pack of PF cells and it hit the concrete floor and something pierced thru the shrink wrap and insulation wadding , straight away could smell the electrolyte and feel the heat from the very hot battery cell on the corner. 1/2 hr later all repaired, cell removed and a spare PF cell glued and spotted into place. bit of Kapton and heat shrink job done.
How not to damage cells.
DSCF1055.JPG

DSCF1056.JPG
 
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John L

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 23, 2007
287
6
Show us a pic of the damage, unlikely anything inside is damaged/frazzled though possibly a fuse will have blown if fitted as that's what they are there for, protection.
Sound like you shorted the connector with your probes.

Dont' worry it happens to us all at some stage.
I did something silly tonight as well, I butterfingered a soft pack of PF cells and it hit the concrete floor and something pierced thru the shrink wrap and insulation wadding , straight away could smell the electrolyte and feel the heat from the very hot battery cell on the corner. 1/2 hr later all repaired, cell removed and a spare PF cell glued and spotted into place. bit of Kapton and heat shrink job done.
How not to damage cells.
View attachment 30975

View attachment 30976
Wow Neal in a perverted way that does make me feel better:) Well done on the fast repair.

The fuse looks in tact and the switch button lights up when depressed.

I'm not sure how well you can see the damage from this photo. But the negative connector is more or less gone. It does look as if the connector housing unscrews so maybe I could replace it.
 

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Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
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Looks like a Dolphin/09 case though don't know where you can get the exact discharge fitting, some one will likely know.
Once opened replacing it will be fairly simple, only requires two solder joints.
 

John L

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 23, 2007
287
6
Looks like a Dolphin/09 case though don't know where you can get the exact discharge fitting, some one will likely know.
Once opened replacing it will be fairly simple, only requires two solder joints.
Yep it's the dolphin 09 case that fits into a base with a built in controller. I'll open it tomorrow and see what can seen and go from there. Thanks.
 

John L

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 23, 2007
287
6
What makes you think that the battery is only half charged? did you measure the voltage?
The lcd display indicated half charge. Previously it was showing full charge. When I put a meter across the discharge plug something shorted and one of the pins in the connector is now burned out. Not sure what exactly happened but the pin is melted and the tip of the probe of my meter also melted.
 

John L

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 23, 2007
287
6
Well I opened the battery case and all looks fine (if that means anything!) No funny smells or obvious damage.

After putting the case together again I connected the charger up and it began charging. I pressed the charge indicator on the battery case (my head is fried because I hadn't even noticed that there was one until I'd taken the case apart!!) I think that shows full charge (though I'm not sure why the red light is also showing.

I then tried to connect the battery to the base and it connected though I think its a very delicate connection. The lcd lit up and I'm now showing 55.3V which is overcharged. Again I'm not sure what that means. Does it mean that the battery is in fact fully charged and that the LCD indicator is just inaccurate (though it previously indicated a fully charged battery).

In any event the connector needs to be replaced. If I can get the right one it would as Neal suggests be easy enough to solder a new one in. I think I've located one online (https://www.greenbikekit.com/accessories/ebike-connectors-cables/e-bike-tigershark-frame-battery-plug-2p-6pins.html) but I don't know anything about the company. Anyone any experience of greenbikekit.com? Or does anyone know where else I could get one?
 

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vfr400

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 12, 2011
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There's always a red light on those battery indicators. The LEDs go out one by one as the battery discharges to leave just the red one.

You must have touched your probes together while they were in the battery connector to get a short like that.

You can never trust battery displays on the LCD or on the battery. Always use a voltmeter.
 

John L

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 23, 2007
287
6
There's always a red light on those battery indicators. The LEDs go out one by one as the battery discharges to leave just the red one.

You must have touched your probes together while they were in the battery connector to get a short like that.

You can never trust battery displays on the LCD or on the battery. Always use a voltmeter.
With all 4 leds lit it looks like it is charged ok - subject to not being able to trust it.

I can't figure how I might have touched the probes together. Only one probe is damaged and with the rubber insulation I can barely get them into the plugs holes. But it must be something like that.

After carefully inserting the probes again this morning I'm getting no reading which means either I can't make contact with both connectors or I damaged the meter:(