Seeking clarity on the law

[Terry1100]

I'm not looking to start a row here - just seeking some clarity before spending a four figure sum on a new bike

As is pointed out in the header for this sub-forum, UK law limits "EPAC"s to 200w motors

https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules

There does not appear to be anthing "foggy" about that !

There are many things that are different in Europe - and even if the UK law may change, as of today the published maximum is 200W. Where do we stand on the fact that the majority of the "so called" legal bikes being sold are 250W

Are there any published guidelines that confirm the UK legality of 250W bikes ?

 

[Alan Quay]

IIRC, the Department for transport have issued a letter that states that they will not prosecute anyone for using a 250w machine, and the law will one day be harmonised with Europe.

Others will be able to clarify more precisely.

 

[KirstinS]

All your questions answered !

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/ind...--Speed-pedelecs---dongles---throttles.19400/

 

[Terry1100]

Kirsten,

Sadly (and without meaning to be stroppy), that thread does not answer my question - it seems largely about the issues of "S-Pedalecs/e-mopeds.

I am aware of a consultation which has just closed that proposes the raising of the limit to 250w to bring us in line with Europe - and now thanks to Mike (above) the apparent existence of a letter from the DoT - but not a published statement on the subject.

But the law as it stands still provides for a 200W limit (even if no prosecutions have taken place).

Are we aware of any publicly available official confirmation that 250W is de facto legal in the UK

T

 

[KirstinS]

There isn't

You have the letter,
the changes which will take place
Police forces round the country using 250w bikes
And the reality of no prosecutions

If that ain't good enough for you then take the bus and wait for the law harmonisation to take effect

 

[Kudoscycles]

Terry....my suggestion is that you search back through the forum,this subject has been somewhat flogged to death,flecc has some notable contributions to the subject.
In reality I don't think you can buy a 200 watt e-bike anywhere and if you could you wouldn't want one,they would be very dull in comparison to the current crop of 250 watt bikes.
The Dft has taken since 2003 to sign up to EN 15194 and don't appear to be in a hurry now. But they realised that all the e-bikes currently on sale in the UK reflect the fact that 250 watt is the EU limit,so they issued a directive that the police should not prosecute anyone using a 250 watt bike,even though that is currently illegal.
You just have to make up your mind once you have searched the forum as to whether you accept the Dft directive as sufficient protection against prosecution.
There will be some on this forum who are very bored with this subject so it may invite a little hostility.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

There isn't

You have the letter,
the changes which will take place
Police forces round the country using 250w bikes
And the reality of no prosecutions

If that ain't good enough for you then take the bus and wait for the law harmonisation to take effect

I agree
KudosDave

 

[Terry1100]

Thanks all -yes, I noted the tension on the subject.

Kirsten says I have the letter - is a copy available here ? - or a copy of the directivve ?

Kirsten - I haven't been on a bus in about 35 years and ain't gonna start now - I might just stick to Mr Kawasaki's fine horsepowers for the moment though !

My apologies all for even asking the question.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Thanks all -yes, I noted the tension on the subject.

Kirsten says I have the letter - is a copy available here ? - or a copy of the directivve ?

Kirsten - I haven't been on a bus in about 35 years and ain't gonna start now - I might just stick to Mr Kawasaki's fine horsepowers for the moment though !

My apologies all for even asking the question.

Terry,at this moment e-bike dealers are stocking up for the busy spring period,I suspect there are 10,000 unsold e-bikes all with 250 watt motors,Kudos has stocks of 700 bikes.
The point I am making is that others have a lot greater risk than one bike.
Obviously you have to make up your own mind but I think that you are together with probably 50000 other current e-bike users who have made the decision that 250 watts is remote from prosecution.
KudosDave

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Just to summarise the situation to make it clear: The law is that motor can have a rated power of no more than 200w. You won't be prosecuted for having a more powerful motor; however, a 250w one is still not legal. There's still some untested implications of liability in some situations other than prosecution, but nobody else is worrying about that, so why should you?

 

[RobF]

Terry,

If you decide to 'research' this fully, you will literally drown in a sea of misinformation.

Lots of well-known brands sell 250W ebikes speed limited to 15.5mph.

The 'easement' to 250W is documented, and there appears to be no official interest in prosecuting riders.

If you are uneasy with that, then the only advice is not to buy an ebike.

 

[flecc]

THe DfT have clearly stated that there will be no prosecution of e-bike riders complying to EU pedelec power limit law where it differs from UK law, and the police are aware of this.

Below are extracts from their statements on this subject:

Summary of Government response to consultation:

2.The Department for Transport has considered the responses to this consultation and supports recommendations to harmonise power limits (from 200 Watts to 250 Watts) with similar provisions in place across Europe. This will provide consumers with access to a wider range of electrically assisted cycles.

Extracts from intentions stated by the DfT at an April 2014 meeting between the DfT and interested parties:

"The DfT and Police are aware that electric bikes currently sold and used in the UK are fitted with 250W motors, they do not intend to become involved in prosecuting those that sell or ride them. The use of an "Off Road Button" however is strictly forbidden now and is specifically mentioned in documents appertaining to new and existing guidelines.

"Grandfather rights" will apply to all bikes sold before the new regulations come into force. So any changes will not be retrospective."

The following document details the intentions

http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-vote-office/8.Transport-ElectricallyAssistedPedalCycles.pdf
.

 

[EddiePJ]

Slightly edging off topic, but it is Xmas after all.

I live on what could be described as a fairly steep hill, and the other day just happened to spot two police officers on e-bikes going up past the house. Something made me smile as they did so. The officer in front was busy pedalling away, whilst the one behind was plainly just using the throttle and having fun.

As odd as it sounds, it brightened my day right up.

If 250w e-bikes are increasingly being used by police forces nationwide, then rightly or wrongly, that seems like a good enough reason for me not be concerned.

 

[Terry1100]

Flecc - thank that's what I was looking for - documentation.

As RobF says, i was drowning in a sea of (mis)information (a bit like Googling your medical conditions !)

It's the trouble with being off work with way too much time on my hands

Thanks all and once again my apologies for even raising the subject.

It's all a bit like breathalysers in your car in France.

Time for another drink
T

 

[D8ve]

Terry please don't apologise. It is a fair and reasonable question.
It's the law/ politicians who are unclear and dragging feet.
But as others have stated. Eu harmonising and the defacto 250 watt lable is what counts now.
Relax and enjoy the ride.

 

[Kinninvie]

They should copy the Yanks and set the limit at 750 Watts.
My 250 Watt Cyclamatic Power Plus (I think the plus means plus we just lied about the power) wont pull me up any of the hills around here even with me pedalling as hard as I can!
Mind you my Kilowatt Dillenger wont pull me up the steepest ones here either.
As for the 250 Watt scoooter,it wont even pull me on the level iof the winds blowing the wrong way.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

They should copy the Yanks and set the limit at 750 Watts.
My 250 Watt Cyclamatic Power Plus (I think the plus means plus we just lied about the power) wont pull me up any of the hills around here even with me pedalling as hard as I can!
Mind you my Kilowatt Dillenger wont pull me up the steepest ones here either.
As for the 250 Watt scoooter,it wont even pull me on the level iof the winds blowing the wrong way.

You don't need high power to get up hills. You just need a motor that gives enough torque. The cyclamatic is only 12A at 24v, so it can't make much torque. You can improve it a lot by soldering 30% of the shunt to get the current up to about 18A, which will give 50% more torque.

Direct drive motors like your 1000w one also don't give much torque, and they stall out too easily. You should try a 500w geared motor if you want to do some serious hill climbing.

 

[Kinninvie]

Yes,I should have said torque,not power.
I find the BBS02 does everything I need round here luckily.
I have a spare controller for the Dillenger so am going to open it up and see about modding the shunt on it for more grunt.
I can check the caps and mosfets while in there to see how much voltage I can put through it .

 

[Deleted member 4366]

You need to bear in mind how much current your battery can give. I think it's already pressed to its limit, so soldering the shunt in your Dillenger controller might not be a good idea.

Torque also increases when you over-volt, but this pushes the efficiency curve up to higher speeds too, i.e. not so efficient when going slowly up hills, so you can get over-heating.

Overall, it would be much better to change to a geared motor.

 

[Kudoscycles]

They should copy the Yanks and set the limit at 750 Watts.
My 250 Watt Cyclamatic Power Plus (I think the plus means plus we just lied about the power) wont pull me up any of the hills around here even with me pedalling as hard as I can!
Mind you my Kilowatt Dillenger wont pull me up the steepest ones here either.
As for the 250 Watt scoooter,it wont even pull me on the level iof the winds blowing the wrong way.

Kinninvie......if we thought that our e-bike law is in a mess,look at the current situation in New York state....it is legal to sell an e-bike up to 750 watts of power but not legal to use one!!!!
The Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) – the federal office that governs safety for bicycles and other consumer goods – offers the following definition of a “low-speed electric bicycle:”

• 2-3 wheeled vehicle
• Fully operable pedals (some gray area on how necessary the pedals need to be for the operation of the bicycle)
• Motor must be less than 750 watts (1 horsepower)
• Maximum assisted speed may be less than 20 miles per hour

These CPSC guidelines – the same body that governs bicycle safety – are currently the most popular legal reference. However, these guidelines only regulate the sale of e-bikes, not their use. In states whose vehicle laws are out of sync with with CPSC guidelines, it’s legal to buy an e-bike but not to ride one on the streets or paths.

For example, e-bikes are currently in “legal limbo” in New York State and City. Statewide motor vehicle law is fuzzy on the issue, but the laws seem to indicate that as long as a bike cannot be powered 100% by the motor (i.e., as long as it is a “pedelec” or pedal-assist system), it is legal to ride without motor vehicle registration. All other systems, like those that operate off of throttles regardless of total motor power or maximum speed, would need to be registered and insured like motorcycles.

This is not just a burden on bicycle owners, it’s also impossible. Bicycles do not have Vehicle Identification Numbers (VINs), so they're not technically eligible for registration or the type of insurance that the law would require. New York Bicycling Coalition has been attempting to get the definition of an electric bike clarified at the state level.

New York City has effectively banned the use of e-bikes, passing extremely strict regulations and instituting crackdowns to respond to residents’ concerns about the unsafe behavior of delivery cyclists riding electric bicycles.

Because the federal CPSC standard only governs sales and not use, it is, ironically, legal to buy an e-bike in New York State but not to ride one.
That lot makes our current situation look simple!!!
KudosDave