Setting a Standard?

[flecc]

The Quando has highest percentage in all example's. Doesn't this therefore compute into Rider weight, age, fitness and ability being immaterial? This kind of information is what the consumer need's together with,

Hardly, all it says is that the Quando is the best climber of those three, but the other factors are hardly immaterial when they vary by almost 2.5 to 1 as I pointed out. Therefore, without the chart a customer would have no idea of if it could handle his hills with his weight and fitness. Just knowing it's the best out of three at something isn't good enough. In any case, the importer or dealer will impart that it's the best climber as importer 50cycles always did, so no need for figures.

The same goes for range as I've repeated ad nauseum.
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[Alex728]

For ebikes to be a success,you need a reasonable second hand market, that's the time when you need cheap batteries. If you're paying up to £500 for a pre-loved bike and then have to fork out £400 for a replacement battery it turns the transaction into a bit of a no-no.

If you bought a second hand racer or "proper" MTB which had had done a few thousand miles you could easily end up spending that amount in replacement components.

indeed I just had a look on wiggle - there is a £765 wheelset on there, and a 10 speed cassette costing £114 - both of these are ultimately consumable items...

It does seem from recent posts at least with the lower end of e-bikes there could easily soon be a cottage industry in the UK rebuilding e-bike batteries for a cheaper cost than the replacements...

 

[onmebike]

Hardly, all it says is that the Quando is the best climber of those three, but the other factors are hardly immaterial when they vary by almost 2.5 to 1 as I pointed out. Therefore, without the chart a customer would have no idea of if it could handle his hills with his weight and fitness. Just knowing it's the best out of three at something isn't good enough. In any case, the importer or dealer will impart that it's the best climber as importer 50cycles always did, so no need for figures.

The same goes for range as I've repeated ad nauseum.
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The chart clearly show's the Quando to be the best hill climber, on this we agree.
The fact it remains the best hill climber at all rider age/weight/fitness level's only serve's to confirm, the Quando is the best hill climber, yes?
Not sure what the point of the test was but common sense tell's us the younger fitter rider would do better than the older unfit one.
So, irrespective of rider the better bike stood out in this case.
Apply this test to all ebike's because hill climbing is an important feature for many buyer's, in fact I'd say it come's a close second to range.
No need for different rider's as the chart show's, the best, at all rider level's will stand out. Next the range?

 

[flecc]

We'll have to agree to disagree on the hill climbing issue, consumers are not so accommodating. They want a clear indication without the need for interpretation.

This method cannot be used for range. Gradient climbing ability is an easily and accurately calculated thing based on the known optimum climb speed for a model and the known weight to be carried up the hill, equations existing for that.

There is no equivalence for the range on e-bikes to be precisely shown, nor can there be.
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[onmebike]

We'll have to agree to disagree on the hill climbing issue, consumers are not so accommodating. They want a clear indication without the need for interpretation.

This method cannot be used for range. Gradient climbing ability is an easily and accurately calculated thing based on the known optimum climb speed for a model and the known weight to be carried up the hill, equations existing for that.

There is no equivalence for the range on e-bikes to be precisely shown, nor can there be.
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I live on top of a hill with steep approaches from all directions, impossible to ride up on a standard bicycle. Hill climber will suit me.
I read something about an oxygen battery, apparently it's currently being developed. BMW claim their electric mini cooper, which currently has a 100 mile range, could be extended to 300 mile with the oxygen batteries, but its going to take 2/3 years. Do you know anything about them?

 

[flecc]

I live on top of a hill with steep approaches from all directions, impossible to ride up on a standard bicycle. Hill climber will suit me.

Unfortunately the Quando is only a single speed small wheel folding bike so no low gears available. Although it's motor is a good climber, one has to be a very strong rider to cope with genuinely steep hills, as that chart of mine showed. The best all round steep hill climbers are those with the Panasonic or Yamaha units, since their motors as well as the rider drive through the gears.

I read something about an oxygen battery, apparently it's currently being developed. BMW claim their electric mini cooper, which currently has a 100 mile range, could be extended to 300 mile with the oxygen batteries, but its going to take 2/3 years. Do you know anything about them?

Oxygen is a suitable element for use as a cathode in lithium batteries, but not easily handled of course. Normally the lithium in our batteriea is not in a metallic form, but in the lithium-air type, pure metallic lithium is used to reduce the oxygen in air to act as a cathode. The attraction is a very high energy density.

However. lithium in it's metallic form is potentially nasty stuff, the research is still at an early stage and at first they were not suitable as rechargeable batteries, though that is being overcome it seems. Therefore don't expect anything in the BMW showroom for a very long time, if ever. All the major car companies have been experimenting with a number of battery types but most types fail to deliver what's needed and are dropped.

Current e-cars use varying types, the Smart and Think pure e-cars use sodium "salt" batteries, the G-Wiz uses lead acid, the Chevrolet Volt and BYD hybrid cars use lithium-iron phosphate and the Toyota Prius uses NiMh.

Mitsubishi's prototype models use either Li-ion manganese or lithium-iron phosphate, Nissan are still dabbling and don't seem to have made up their mind.
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[onmebike]

Unfortunately the Quando is only a single speed small wheel folding bike so no low gears available. Although it's motor is a good climber, one has to be a very strong rider to cope with genuinely steep hills, as that chart of mine showed. The best all round steep hill climbers are those with the Panasonic or Yamaha units, since their motors as well as the rider drive through the gears.



Oxygen is a suitable element for use as a cathode in lithium batteries, but not easily handled of course. Normally the lithium in our batteriea is not in a metallic form, but in the lithium-air type, pure metallic lithium is used to reduce the oxygen in air to act as a cathode. The attraction is a very high energy density.

However. lithium in it's metallic form is potentially nasty stuff, the research is still at an early stage and at first they were not suitable as rechargeable batteries, though that is being overcome it seems. Therefore don't expect anything in the BMW showroom for a very long time, if ever. All the major car companies have been experimenting with a number of battery types but most types fail to deliver what's needed and are dropped.

Current e-cars use varying types, the Smart and Think pure e-cars use sodium "salt" batteries, the G-Wiz uses lead acid, the Chevrolet Volt and BYD hybrid cars use lithium-iron phosphate and the Toyota Prius uses NiMh.

Mitsubishi's prototype models use either Li-ion manganese or lithium-iron phosphate, Nissan are still dabbling and don't seem to have made up their mind.
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Thanks flecc, I'll have to start reading up on these thing's. Never really condidered electric as an alternative. I don't suppose I'll really need to in my lifetime.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

but you will then just get people at the fitter end of the scale (cycling clubs being full of 'em) and higher ranges which the less fit people will then claim are exaggerated!

I agree however if all bikes took part we would have a bench mark for consumers.

Regards

David

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Current e-cars use varying types, the Smart and Think pure e-cars use sodium "salt" batteries, the G-Wiz uses lead acid, the Chevrolet Volt and BYD hybrid cars use lithium-iron phosphate and the Toyota Prius uses NiMh.

Mitsubishi's prototype models use either Li-ion manganese or lithium-iron phosphate, Nissan are still dabbling and don't seem to have made up their mind.
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I was contacted to day by a company who are developing a Lithium Sulphur battery!

All the best

David

 

[flecc]

Yes, it's murder keeping track of all types now David, it seems almost infinite, but I think most won't make it. The problem with the sulphur types has been the loss of active sulphur during use, but I suppose they might get there eventually. Too early yet though. Here's the list of suitable cathode elements. You'll see the oxygen one onmebike mentioned that BMW are experimenting with is quite low down!!

Suitable Cathode Materials

(BEST Most Positive)

Iron, as Iron Oxide
Copper, as Cuprous Oxide
Iodine, as Iodate
Copper, as Cupric Oxide
Mercury, as Mercuric Oxide
Cobalt, as Cobaltic Oxide
Manganese, as Manganese Dioxide
Lead, as Lead Dioxide
Silver, as Silver Oxide
Oxygen
Nickel, as Nickel Oxyhydroxide
Nickel, as Nickel Dioxide
Silver, as Silver Peroxide
Permanganate
Bromate

(WORST Least Positive)
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[Alex728]

I agree however if all bikes took part we would have a bench mark for consumers.

Regards

David

perhaps then the sort of "club" you want to get on board shouldn't be a "racing" club but a local cycling campaign advocacy/group geared towards utility cyclists (most towns/cities have one of these, such as Cycle ipswich here or Colchester Cycling Campaign) - there was also a good one in Reading (Reading Cycle Campaign).

that way your test riders will be potentially a more varied group closer to the profile of commuters than competitive riders..

 

[Old Timer]

Let me be a tester

I`ve got the storage space and the enthusiasm so let the manufacturers use me as Mr average and bring them on (with running commentary)

 

[onmebike]

It appear's testing ebike's is nothing new? Get that field sorted oldtimer, the cycle testing track is coming to Norfolk.





http://www.datei.de/public/extraenergy/Registration-Test2010.pdf


Test Reports 09 - Products: New Products, Test 2010, Test 2009/10, Test 2009, Tests 2001-2008, Test Reports 08, :BatteryTest, E-Scooter, Vehicle Types, Pedelec Types, Archive, :Electric Bikes Tested - ExtraEnergy.org

ExtraEnergy.org

 

[flecc]

I'm afraid the Extra Enery tests leave a lot to be desired though, such silliness as testing hill climb ability on a 6% slope, barely enough to even qualify as a hill.

All in all their tests are not much better than riding around and giving subjective impressions of riders, different on each machine. Some of the rank markings have been very questionable and at times seem to be linked to bike price.

This is why I remarked in another thread commenting on A to B's testing that we still lack any good quality truly unbiased independent tests of e-bikes.
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[Old Timer]

What I`ve noticed now owning several e bikes is just how important the actual batteries are from the point of view of not only quality components but the need for every cell in the battery to be of top quality and matched up with not one cell that is slightly under par.
Talking around the trade and reading it still seems a bit of a turkey shoot when you buy a new battery from what ever source. Perhaps the way is to build your own selecting the cells yourself?

 

[onmebike]

As I started this thread, I suppose I have a responsibility to form some sort of conclusion.This should be fun.
Thanks to everybody that took part, especially flecc, with whom I was particularly annoying, for the purpose of debate, you understand. He tolerated it well.
My apologies to anyone whom input their views but got no response, especially Bob About, whom I know tried several times.I can only say, I agreed with all you said and could add little to it.

My conclusion, if you can call it that.
Let me just say, I'm no expert, this kind of thing is outside of my usual skill's, so I'm learning as I go.
I thought setting a standard or some kind of benchmark would be relatively easy. Not unlike testing any other appliance.Apparently not, but I'll have a go.
The main obstacle appears to be the infinite variations in conditions facing an ebike in the real world.
Infinite variations simply means, constantly changing within known limit's. Although knowing this doesn't make the task much easier.
As ebike sales are aimed at the adult[14+] population in general, I assume the variations in conditions would be limited to those faced by the average commute or leisure ride. So, no extreme's of terrain or weather.Well, not for the vast majority.
Rider variations? Being adult machines with a maximum load capacity, rider build and weight fall within a varied, but again, limited range.
Rider ability, possibly the most significant of all the variable's, or is it? The manufacturer seems to have already taken this into account by setting limits to the pedelec system? The points where assistance cuts in and out and the variables in between. An able rider will have little trouble pedalling beyond the point of assistance therefore making range more a measure of personal achievement than ebike ability.
At this point its worth remembering, the project is testing the ebike, not rider. Outside the range of assistance there is virtually zero power consumption save a minimal monitoring amount, so the test should be restricted to within assistance limits to avoid unassisted distances[down to rider]confusing the final result.
It would surely be more helpful for the consumer to know, what an ebike is capable of within the limits of assistance, than a guesstimate based on assumptions of rider ability.
E.g "This ebike will cover 12 mile's with minimal input from rider, greater distances are easily achieved with increased rider input"
Okay, this wouldn't be perfect, but then what is? We may at least be able to plan a journey in the knowledge we could get home with a little power in reserve.
What would be needed for a test of this kind? A rolling road to simulate varied condition's and a mechanical means of pedalling
within the assisted range to simulate varied rider input. Appropriate means of recording, power consumption, distance and time. Possible with todays technology? Probably, but thats just my opinion.
Finally, One of the biggest inconsistencies with ebike's is the battery, no two perform identically, unless cells have been matched perfectly in production and then you'll pay accordingly. Even those rated best can under perform and often do. Hopefully Lifepo4 may eliminate this to some extent and appears to be the way to go.
Thats about it, for some this would have made some sense, others maybe not. I did my best. Taking a lead from Old Timer's signature I'll finish with these words.
If my ranting's expose a fool, its surely my audience? Whom should have known better than listen.