Spoke adjustment

[WALKERMAN]

I have a random clicking coming from the rear of my Proconnect. I've checked but can't find anything obvious. I read up on spoke problems and had a 'ping' of the wheel spokes (24 spoke). Half the rear wheel spokes gave a dull noise and not a musical type note. The front was OK. The bike is now over 2 years old and has done over 6000 miles.
What tools do I need to adjust the spokes and where is the tightening done - at the rim end?
Can I get the required tool(s) from Halfords?

 

[Mike63]

You need a spoke tightener...costs about a £ from any bike shop
.....one tightener fits different size spokes but be warned it's a very specialised job, very easy to make a mess of it.
If you do decide to have a go google for information first.....yes tighten at the rim end.

good luck...Mike

 

[JamesC]

Hi Walkerman

The 24 spoke rear wheel on the ProConnect is quite unusual. The 12 spokes on the sprocket side cross each other in a tangential pattern, and the 12 spokes on the non-sprocket side are direct from hub to rim in a radial pattern.

This is explained on the Shimano Service Instruction Sheet for the WH-8R25 wheel assembly.

The sheet tells you that the spoke tension is greater on the sprocket side (900-1200 N) compared with 700-1100 N on the non sprocket side.

So there will be a different "ping" between the two groups of 12, but each spoke within a group should be similar.

If you have not worked on truing a wheel previously, this would not be the best wheel to start on. Furthermore, replacement spokes used to be difficult to get hold of. Worth checking with 50cycles as to whether they stock the 2 lengths involved.

I would suggest getting it checked at a good local bike shop before buying kit for the task.

James

 

[WALKERMAN]

Proconnect loose spokes

I bought a Park SW-7 spoke wrench today and guess what, it doesn't fit onto the 24 spoke wheel nipples.
Anyone know what size I need and where to get the correct tool please?

 

[WALKERMAN]

I bought a Park SW-7 spoke wrench today and guess what, it doesn't fit onto the 24 spoke wheel nipples.
Anyone know what size I need and where to get the correct tool please?

Reposting this as it didn't appear yesterday.

 

[tillson]

Hi WALKERMAN. You might be better off talking to 50Cycles about any requirements you have regarding this 24 spoke wheel. I had many problems with mine and couldn't source anything for it. 50Cycles said they could obtain parts, but certainly my extensive efforts to do so through well established bike shops came to nothing.

I was never very happy with that wheel, it was always creaking, ticking, and making other strange noises in addition to spokes loosening.

I guess your bike is now out of warranty if it has 24 spoke wheels. I ended up writing directly to Derby Cycles to express my concerns, especially after they revised the specification of the bike to 32 spoke wheels. My bike was upgraded to the latest type of wheel at the time. It had made a huge difference, I've not had any spoke or wear issues at all.

The above may not help you with your immediate problem, but if you can find an economically viable way to dispenses with those 24 spoke efforts, do so.

 

[JamesC]

Measuring across the flats of the nipple, I get 3.83/3.84 mm. As you discovered, this is larger than the common nipple sizes.

A multi sized spoke key (Taiwan stamped on it) that I bought some years ago has the number 13 against the size that fits. It is one of these (first picture in thread) that is not popular with this guy.

You might still find these in Halfords, although I can't see them on the web site. Here is the one on ebay. It will definitely fit.

"Gauge numbers" such as 13 are different in the Far East compared to Europe.

The key shown here might contain the right size.

The Park Tool SW-3 with the Blue handle (3.96 mm) will certainly fit over the nipple, and would be worth a try - might be a little too large.

The Park SW-7 comprises the 3 smaller sizes that Park offer. All too small.

James

 

[WALKERMAN]

Many thanks for the help everyone. Once again this site is a huge help with all the accummulated knowledge and wisdom of the members.

Pretty annoying about 24 spoke wheels. As an engineer I was concerned when Derby Cycles suddenly changed the design to 36 spoke. All 24 spoke wheels should have been changed even if out of warranty for safety reasons.

I wonder if there is a legal side to this that needs following up!

 

[flecc]

Pretty annoying about 24 spoke wheels. As an engineer I was concerned when Derby Cycles suddenly changed the design to 36 spoke. All 24 spoke wheels should have been changed even if out of warranty for safety reasons.

I wonder if there is a legal side to this that needs following up!

I understand it was a Shimano wheel bought in by Derby Cycles and it was Shimano who discontinued the 24 spoke gear hub shell and therefore the wheel built from it, possibly due to failures.

A legal challenge would be unlikely to succeed since there are numerous examples of bike wheels with fewer spokes, right down to 9 spokes on a Rolfe wheel fitted to one Dahon model. On e-bikes too, for example, this BH e-motion Sport de Luxe model has a 20 spoke rear wheel and a 16 spoke front wheel.

That said, I don't like minimally spoked wheels either, and if only for PR reasons, Derby could easily have changed over owner's wheels since only a few had been sold by the stage of changeover to 36 spoke.
.

 

[tillson]

That said, I don't like minimally spoked wheels either, and if only for PR reasons, Derby could easily have changed over owner's wheels since only a few had been sold by the stage of changeover to 36 spoke.
.

That's effectively what Derby Cycles did for me. They supplied a 32 spoke front and rear wheel. The 24 spoke front front wheel was fine, it was the rear wheel which gave all the problems.

For the sake of the cost of a stamp, it might be worth writing a friendly letter to Derby Cycles. Start by telling them what an excellent bike it is, let down by the wheel design etc. Send it off sausage side and see what happens.

Even if you have to contribute a bit, it's definitely worth upgrading the back wheel.

 

[WALKERMAN]

Measuring across the flats of the nipple, I get 3.83/3.84 mm. As you discovered, this is larger than the common nipple sizes.

A multi sized spoke key (Taiwan stamped on it) that I bought some years ago has the number 13 against the size that fits. It is one of these (first picture in thread) that is not popular with this guy.

You might still find these in Halfords, although I can't see them on the web site. Here is the one on ebay. It will definitely fit.

"Gauge numbers" such as 13 are different in the Far East compared to Europe.

The key shown here might contain the right size.

The Park Tool SW-3 with the Blue handle (3.96 mm) will certainly fit over the nipple, and would be worth a try - might be a little too large.

The Park SW-7 comprises the 3 smaller sizes that Park offer. All too small.

James

Thanks for this help.

I received the ebay one yesterday and the 13 size fits perfectly.

I tightened all the spokes in the rear wheel that were loose and tried it out this morning. The noise has almost gone and only just audible when going up hill. I will have another little tweek of the spokes and hopefully that will sort it.

I must say that I am not very confident riding around on this 24 spoker with the possibility of spokes loosening.

 

[WALKERMAN]

ProConnect wheels

I have loose spokes again on the rear wheel of my 2 1/2 year old ProConnect and some of them don't seem to tighten anymore.

I have been in touch with Kalkhoff in Germany about the early wheels and how I thought they were suspect especially as they were changed so quickly after the model was introduced but they didn't even have the courtesy to reply to my letter.

I am now thinking about replacing both wheels?
Can they be bought complete perhaps with new hub gears as I haven't got the time to spare for lengthy off-road repairs?
Where would I be able to buy them and how much would they cost?
Your help and comments are always appreciated.

 

[flecc]

To get them complete with the hub gears it would probably be best to ask 50cycles about getting the current Pro Connect wheels which are completely satisfactory. Otherwise it means having a bike shop build the hub gear wheel.
.

 

[JamesC]

I have loose spokes again on the rear wheel of my 2 1/2 year old ProConnect and some of them don't seem to tighten anymore.

I have been in touch with Kalkhoff in Germany about the early wheels and how I thought they were suspect especially as they were changed so quickly after the model was introduced but they didn't even have the courtesy to reply to my letter.

I am now thinking about replacing both wheels?
Can they be bought complete perhaps with new hub gears as I haven't got the time to spare for lengthy off-road repairs?
Where would I be able to buy them and how much would they cost?
Your help and comments are always appreciated.

Hi Walkerman

The recipe that I have used for replacement 36 spoke rear wheels is as follows:

Shimano Nexus 8 speed SG-8R36 hub
Mavic A319 Black 36 spoke rim
36x DTSwiss Alpine III Triple Butted spokes 268mm long (2 cross pattern)
Schwalbe 700c x 20mm HP rim tape

This produces an excellent wheel that is very strong and should last a long time. However, the parts are expensive.
SJS sell all the parts and would be worth asking for a quote on a complete wheel.

If building the wheel yourself, other suppliers may do the parts more cheaply.

Regarding the SG-8R36 hub, this is available at lower cost than the Alfine equivalent, as it has no provision to accept a disc brake. The frame of your ProConnect has no facility for a disc brake caliper, so nothing is lost in using the Nexus version rather than the Alfine.

Your 8 speed lever shifter is correct for this hub as also is the cassete that carries the cable at the hub end.

If however you wish to replace the cassette, and particularly if you favour a 19 tooth rear sprocket like I do, then I commend the package available from Rose Versand in Germany as excellent value. It does include the rotary shifter as used on the Agattu and Tasman rather than the lever shifter, but remains good value for hub + cassette + sprocket.

You will need your original Black/Grey non-rotation washers.

For the front wheel, I use:

Shimano Deore XT HB-M770 Front Hub
Mavic A319 Black 36 spoke rim
36x DTSwiss Competition Double Butted spokes 292mm long (3 cross pattern)
Schwalbe 700c x 20mm HP rim tape

For the Agattu and Tasman which use the Shimano Front Hub Dynamo DH-3N20, the spoke length is 284 mm for the 3 cross pattern.

James

 

[JamesC]

I should add that the Mavic A319 rims accept tyre widths between 28 and 47 mm.

Most of the time, I have used the 700c x 38 Marathon Plus road tyre, but more recently the 700c x 40 Marathon Plus ATB.

Both have been fine on the rim, but you need wider mudguards for these widths on an early ProConnect.

James

 

[WALKERMAN]

To get them complete with the hub gears it would probably be best to ask 50cycles about getting the current Pro Connect wheels which are completely satisfactory. Otherwise it means having a bike shop build the hub gear wheel.
.

I took your advice Tony and its a week today that I contacted them and not even an acknowledgement to my email;-

'How much for a set of wheels complete with new hub gears for a July 2008 ProConnect please?'

 

[tillson]

It is sometimes best to telephone them and speak direct rather rely on email. I know it's no excuse, but they aren't the best at responding to email.

I'm not sure what they are fitting to the PC these days, but Derby cycles supplied me with wheels ready built, pretty much to the spec that James is suggesting, with the exception that the gear hub is the Alfine and the wheel rims say Blackjack Warmup on them, all in 32 spoke variant. I've never heard of these Blackjack rims myself, but they seem very good in terms of wear etc.

Have you explored the possibility of putting the internals of your existing hub gear into a 32 or 36 spoke shell? 50C offered this as a compromise when I was was having my wheel troubles. Its a bit galling having to dump a perfectly good set of functioning gears in order to achieve an acceptable wheel and the new shell option would get around that. And to be honest, I don't know what the difference is between the original Nexus gears fitted to the PC and the newer Alfine. Both seem to work very well.

 

[WALKERMAN]

I first started asking about loose spokes on this forum in August which was less than a month out of the warranty for my ProConnect. I did adjust them but they are again loose and some turn when adjusted but don't tighten up.

I still haven't had a reply to the letter I sent Derby Cycles on 21.08.10 as I felt they should have contributed something towards the 24 spoke wheel replacement.

I contacted 50C for the price of replacement wheels and got a reply within a day or so. £350 for both wheels complete with hub or £280 for just the rear wheel / hub.

I decided that I would try replacing the loose spokes and again asked 50C for a price but haven't heard from them since I sent the email on 21st of this month.

Can I get the spokes / nipples anywhere else and approx. how much are they?

 

[tillson]

From memory, I think those wheels have an oval profiled spoke. I had an enormous amount of difficulty finding any spare parts for that wheel and from the comnents made by a multitude of large and well known dealers, came to the conclusion that the wheel is obsolete. I believe that it was on the verge of obsolescence when it was supplied new on the bike, which is totally unacceptable on a bike of that purported quality.

50 Cycles maintained that they had access to an abundance of spares, so I think they will be your only option.

 

[WALKERMAN]

From memory, I think those wheels have an oval profiled spoke. I had an enormous amount of difficulty finding any spare parts for that wheel and from the comnents made by a multitude of large and well known dealers, came to the conclusion that the wheel is obsolete. I believe that it was on the verge of obsolescence when it was supplied new on the bike, which is totally unacceptable on a bike of that purported quality.

50 Cycles maintained that they had access to an abundance of spares, so I think they will be your only option.

I've had a gut feeling all along that this might be the case with the early wheels.

I am very disappointed with Derby Cycles for having not replied to my letter in the past 3 months and 50C's lack of response about spare spokes concerns me as well. I have a two and a half year ProConnect which I rely on every day for getting me to and from work and it looks like I will have to pay for the full set of wheels to keep it running.