hi -i would have thought bio fuel which i believe is already on sale in some parts of the country could help and what about America maybe it could stop dumping thousands of tons of cereal and grow the ingredients for bio fuel the excuses for invading eastern countries might stop, and we could stop being held to ransom by the Arab countries.Also what abut the Hydrogen cell ,we ,might all be running o water in a few years .How about removing the right [should please Flecc]to have as many cars as you like in a family and limit every family to one car you have halved the problem in one go.Are we all prepared to forgo foreign travel aeroplanes are one of the biggest polluters,just how many people who log on to this site have sold their cars in favour of an electric bike--nuff said.-Stuart
The power to make cycling make sense
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
Wouldn't please me Stuart. I'm a car owner too, albeit very low mileage, circa 400 miles a year.
The case against bio fuel is simply the land needed, I'd very strongly welcome it if that wasn't the case. Just to fuel Britains cars, not the commercials, buses or trains, would take five times all of our agricultural land in this country. So it's not a viable alternative, we've already ripped off other's resources more than enough in our history. Pinching their agricultural land to grow fuel for our cars and feed ourselves completely is just not a possibility. If they had it to spare, they'd want it to fuel their own cars.
Hydrogen? Fine, it's produced with vast quantities of electrical power. Where can that come from? Fossil fuels or nuclear power. I'm happy with the nuclear option, but will others be? Any alternative way of producing it? Yes, by direct nuclear power/chemical methods, leaving electricity out of the loop. Same applies.
P.S. I sold my Honda CB500R motorbike in favour of getting the Giant Lafree Twist, does that count?
The case against bio fuel is simply the land needed, I'd very strongly welcome it if that wasn't the case. Just to fuel Britains cars, not the commercials, buses or trains, would take five times all of our agricultural land in this country. So it's not a viable alternative, we've already ripped off other's resources more than enough in our history. Pinching their agricultural land to grow fuel for our cars and feed ourselves completely is just not a possibility. If they had it to spare, they'd want it to fuel their own cars.
Hydrogen? Fine, it's produced with vast quantities of electrical power. Where can that come from? Fossil fuels or nuclear power. I'm happy with the nuclear option, but will others be? Any alternative way of producing it? Yes, by direct nuclear power/chemical methods, leaving electricity out of the loop. Same applies.
P.S. I sold my Honda CB500R motorbike in favour of getting the Giant Lafree Twist, does that count?
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As Flecc, said biofuels and hydrogen will not solve our problems. Biofuels just require too much land mass and hydrogen is an energy carrier. We will have to face up to the fact that at some point we will all have to power down (excellent book by the same title if anyone is interested). Air travel will become a luxury few of us can afford. I believe the next few decades will result in some major life changes for us all.
That's encouraging Russ, one car and one motorcycle down just from the few of us in here, and when my last surviving relative in this country passes on, my car will also go. It's needed in his support at the moment.
I agree with your view on the forthcoming life changes, it won't be a matter of choice but a matter of the few options left to us.
Details on that book please Russ, I just entered "power down" into Amazon and got this:
Making Jesus Lord: The Dynamic Power of Laying Down Your Rights
I don't think that's what you meant!
I agree with your view on the forthcoming life changes, it won't be a matter of choice but a matter of the few options left to us.
Details on that book please Russ, I just entered "power down" into Amazon and got this:
Making Jesus Lord: The Dynamic Power of Laying Down Your Rights
I don't think that's what you meant!
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I have to say, what a healthy debate!!
But heres something else to consider, the choice of fuels or no of cars is really a moot point. Why? wel we know we will run out of oil, and we know that we dont have the land mass for bio fuel (even if GM crops became the norm), Hydrogen cells - I dont think they will cut down on congestion either.
the basic facts are:-
1) Too many cars on the road.
2) You dont need a 11' x 6' vehicle for each individual to get from A 2 B.
3) If we try, we will always be short of 1 resource or another.
When I look at rush hour, 90%+ of the cars have 1 person in. Share a car schemes simply do not work very well at all, and pulic transport is a complete and utter disgrace.
If most journeys people make are to work (which they are) then they are only transporting 1 person and a few belongings to 1 place.
I cant think of any method of transport that makes any more sense to commute with than an electric bike at this moment in time, but who knows whats to come.
Additionally, I am about to give up my car for an electric bike (and it means I could get a couple too). Im not looking forward to the snow and ice on my 13 mileish each way commute, but at least I will be smiling all the way (I hope).
John
But heres something else to consider, the choice of fuels or no of cars is really a moot point. Why? wel we know we will run out of oil, and we know that we dont have the land mass for bio fuel (even if GM crops became the norm), Hydrogen cells - I dont think they will cut down on congestion either.
the basic facts are:-
1) Too many cars on the road.
2) You dont need a 11' x 6' vehicle for each individual to get from A 2 B.
3) If we try, we will always be short of 1 resource or another.
When I look at rush hour, 90%+ of the cars have 1 person in. Share a car schemes simply do not work very well at all, and pulic transport is a complete and utter disgrace.
If most journeys people make are to work (which they are) then they are only transporting 1 person and a few belongings to 1 place.
I cant think of any method of transport that makes any more sense to commute with than an electric bike at this moment in time, but who knows whats to come.
Additionally, I am about to give up my car for an electric bike (and it means I could get a couple too). Im not looking forward to the snow and ice on my 13 mileish each way commute, but at least I will be smiling all the way (I hope).
John
Well said John.
Although there's many frustrations for the environmentally minded, there are the bright spots as we've been showing. One of these here in Greater London is the fact that up to 16 year olds have free public transport on buses, trams and the tube over more than 500 square miles, and that's planned to be extended to include up to 18 year olds in full time education. Since there are also negotiations aimed at gradually including local overground trains in Transport for London's plans, they might become free for the young too. It's a great way to maximise public transport use by the young, inculcating a habit that could last.
Public transport isn't too bad at all here on the Surrey/London border. We've got a constant stream of feeder buses (T31) to the tram/bus interchange, connecting to other towns to east and west and main line stations with 15 minute journey time into central London. The fact that the kids can go free means they take full advantage of the facility, leading to a greatly reduced demand on parents to transport them in cars.
Although there's many frustrations for the environmentally minded, there are the bright spots as we've been showing. One of these here in Greater London is the fact that up to 16 year olds have free public transport on buses, trams and the tube over more than 500 square miles, and that's planned to be extended to include up to 18 year olds in full time education. Since there are also negotiations aimed at gradually including local overground trains in Transport for London's plans, they might become free for the young too. It's a great way to maximise public transport use by the young, inculcating a habit that could last.
Public transport isn't too bad at all here on the Surrey/London border. We've got a constant stream of feeder buses (T31) to the tram/bus interchange, connecting to other towns to east and west and main line stations with 15 minute journey time into central London. The fact that the kids can go free means they take full advantage of the facility, leading to a greatly reduced demand on parents to transport them in cars.
Free transport for 16s and under, thats a great idea. Where I live in Stockport (on the fringes of the out skirts of Manchster) we too have many regular services. But the buses themselves seem to have designed the seats so that any man of average height and weight has to find an extra joint in the knee area in order to fit into the alloted space.
On the main lines, there are plenty of buses, everywhere else there are very few, and at most normally once an hour and no evening or Sunday services (but if you dont mind a 20-50 min walk, you can get to the main line or the nearest train station)
After you get out of Hazel Grove, then your at the mercy of the bus services of the High Peak, and those are not the best (in some places only once or twice a day IF they run).
Maybe we should get National free public transport for all ages, that would have an effect on car congestion.
John
On the main lines, there are plenty of buses, everywhere else there are very few, and at most normally once an hour and no evening or Sunday services (but if you dont mind a 20-50 min walk, you can get to the main line or the nearest train station)
After you get out of Hazel Grove, then your at the mercy of the bus services of the High Peak, and those are not the best (in some places only once or twice a day IF they run).
Maybe we should get National free public transport for all ages, that would have an effect on car congestion.
John
I've often thought that might be a good idea John. Whenever someone got a little financially embarrassed, they'd be able to turn to public transport to save on car fuel, and that could become a regular habit for many to make their income go further.
For us in Greater London, the congestion charge has made a really big difference though, giving the income to greatly increase the bus fleet and modernise it as well, while greatly reducing the congestion in the centre. Cycling increased by 16% in the first year, I think by about double that in the second, and it's now about the fastest growth of cycling in the world. It's also financed free cycle maps for anyone to pick up from any public library, a set of 19 maps showing all the cycle routes in Greater London, and cycling route budgets of millions of pounds. All in all, we're quite spoilt here really, though we're always wanting more of course.
For us in Greater London, the congestion charge has made a really big difference though, giving the income to greatly increase the bus fleet and modernise it as well, while greatly reducing the congestion in the centre. Cycling increased by 16% in the first year, I think by about double that in the second, and it's now about the fastest growth of cycling in the world. It's also financed free cycle maps for anyone to pick up from any public library, a set of 19 maps showing all the cycle routes in Greater London, and cycling route budgets of millions of pounds. All in all, we're quite spoilt here really, though we're always wanting more of course.
No, none at all Gaynor, only the on road 14 year old minimum that's been handed down through each version of the law without being examined as to it's usefulness. However, I don't know if that applies on off road cycle routes as well, it probably does.
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I agree completely. We are being discriminated against quite unfairly, I think solely due to the political desire to control, to do something. With no registration requirements, the desire to control and influence somehow has found expression in other ways.
With no more capabilities than ordinary bikes, there is no logical reason why electric bikes should have any controlling laws other than the motor wattage power limit.
The one bright spot for me is that it's better than when I first started selling and servicing bike add-on motors from 1950. They had to have full registration and number plates, since they were petrol engines! There was no bike speed limitation though.
With no more capabilities than ordinary bikes, there is no logical reason why electric bikes should have any controlling laws other than the motor wattage power limit.
The one bright spot for me is that it's better than when I first started selling and servicing bike add-on motors from 1950. They had to have full registration and number plates, since they were petrol engines! There was no bike speed limitation though.
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The silliest thing is the way in which even modern laws aren't enforced and aren't even known, making them academic.
You may have seen, as I have, some recent comments about introducing fines for cycling on pavements, from MPs, police officers and others. They seem completely unaware of the following.
On the 1st August 2000, a law came into force in England and Wales authorising any police officer to issue a £20 on the spot penalty for cycling on the pavement. The law is applicable to any age, but a Home Office directive instructed police forces not to issue to anyone under the age of 16. There are indications that none of London's 30,000 plus police officers have ever issued such a fine, and it's likely many of them don't even know they can! I believe one northern force has issued a tiny number of them, but overall, it's laws, laws and more laws, few doing anything since few know of them.
You may have seen, as I have, some recent comments about introducing fines for cycling on pavements, from MPs, police officers and others. They seem completely unaware of the following.
On the 1st August 2000, a law came into force in England and Wales authorising any police officer to issue a £20 on the spot penalty for cycling on the pavement. The law is applicable to any age, but a Home Office directive instructed police forces not to issue to anyone under the age of 16. There are indications that none of London's 30,000 plus police officers have ever issued such a fine, and it's likely many of them don't even know they can! I believe one northern force has issued a tiny number of them, but overall, it's laws, laws and more laws, few doing anything since few know of them.
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I find this particularly interesting nowadays as there has been a move towards "dualling" our local footpaths so that they are footpaths/cycletracks. I would assume that the council has to post a "change of use" notification so that this no longer becomes an offence. It is pleasing that the local authorities are spending to save cyclists but alarming that the cyclist moves off the road (having right of way as a vehicle) onto a path where he has to stop at every minor road junction that crosses his path.
Where I live there are many of these dual use paths Pete, but with time they've become a benefit in many places. Some have been extensively widened where possible, and in some cases are now marked two way for the bikes with a separate large width alongside solely for pedestrians.
On one busy route, one such three lane pedestrian/cycle path leads to two light controlled Toucan crossings with marked lanes for bikes and pedestrians, these short cutting and bypassing an otherwise very dangerous large fast roundabout.
On my main dual carriageway into Croydon, the starting stretch is like this from west to east:
A service road, grass verge, vehicle dual lane north, central reservation, vehicle dual lane south, wide verge of grass, bushes and trees, dual carriageway for bikes, very wide footpath, then a fence and hedge, finally north and southbound Tram tracks. Then what's left of the countryside begins again!
So if the local authority has the imagination and will, much can be achieved. Here's a photo of one of the wider paths alongside a main road.
cyclepath
On one busy route, one such three lane pedestrian/cycle path leads to two light controlled Toucan crossings with marked lanes for bikes and pedestrians, these short cutting and bypassing an otherwise very dangerous large fast roundabout.
On my main dual carriageway into Croydon, the starting stretch is like this from west to east:
A service road, grass verge, vehicle dual lane north, central reservation, vehicle dual lane south, wide verge of grass, bushes and trees, dual carriageway for bikes, very wide footpath, then a fence and hedge, finally north and southbound Tram tracks. Then what's left of the countryside begins again!
So if the local authority has the imagination and will, much can be achieved. Here's a photo of one of the wider paths alongside a main road.
cyclepath
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age limit
Just a line to drag up the old chestnut of doing away with the age limit for electric bikes,RoSPA issued a report this week stating the most common accidents involve, young children cyclists,also the Department of Transport also reports that children aged 10 to 14 yrs of age having the greatest number of casualties while riding bikes ,there is a steep decline in casualties with age ,the older you are the less likely you are to have an accident . Stuart
Just a line to drag up the old chestnut of doing away with the age limit for electric bikes,RoSPA issued a report this week stating the most common accidents involve, young children cyclists,also the Department of Transport also reports that children aged 10 to 14 yrs of age having the greatest number of casualties while riding bikes ,there is a steep decline in casualties with age ,the older you are the less likely you are to have an accident . Stuart
I can see where you are coming from Stuart. We have an unusual situation in that you can pedal a bike faster than the legally assisted limit. Obviously folk on e-bikes or motorbikes can't go faster as they don't have any pedals.
I would rather see the law concentrate on preventing youths driving powerful cars at 17. A gradual HP/BPT approach would be better.
For shared lanes, a cycle speed limit would still be useful.
I would rather see the law concentrate on preventing youths driving powerful cars at 17. A gradual HP/BPT approach would be better.
For shared lanes, a cycle speed limit would still be useful.
Agreed Stuart, but that doesn't alter the fact that it would be the same for any bike, whether the propulsion is from pedalling or electric motor.
If there is a difference, it's that the electric is safer. I've just this moment returned from shopping at Selsdon, and on the way was cruising up the long continuous slope on the Quando at 14 mph without pedalling. I passed a cyclist more than half way up who was labouring, head down etc. Who do you think was safer, me with nothing else to do than watch out for other road users, or him, struggling to propel the bike with his head down much of the time?
If there is a difference, it's that the electric is safer. I've just this moment returned from shopping at Selsdon, and on the way was cruising up the long continuous slope on the Quando at 14 mph without pedalling. I passed a cyclist more than half way up who was labouring, head down etc. Who do you think was safer, me with nothing else to do than watch out for other road users, or him, struggling to propel the bike with his head down much of the time?
age limit
Sorry you all seem to be missing the point,74%of the bike riders killed on the roads where in the 10 to 14 age group, so by lowering the age limit for electric bikes you will add to the problem, and yes elec bikes are no different from pushbikes except they can weigh up to 40 kg ,a lethal weapon in the wrong hands. Stuart.
Sorry you all seem to be missing the point,74%of the bike riders killed on the roads where in the 10 to 14 age group, so by lowering the age limit for electric bikes you will add to the problem, and yes elec bikes are no different from pushbikes except they can weigh up to 40 kg ,a lethal weapon in the wrong hands. Stuart.
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