Treat the Earth Well

[Barry Heaven]

I think I'm doing more harm to the environment now that I'm e-biking. I used to go to work on a crowded (and so efficient) train, I doubt that the slight reduction in energy being used by the train now that it doesn't have to carry my weight is enough to offset the energy needed to manufacture and run my ebike.

For one person that sort of appears to be the case. BUT - say a train carries 500 people (or whatever the actual number is). If 500 people stopped using the train and used e-bikes, then effectively one train is ultimately taken out of service at some point, with all of the savings in energy that entails and no need to build a replacement train. Environmental benefits always look tiny and not worthwhile at the individual level but the real impact is when large numbers of people get involved.

 

[CeeGee]

I don't own a car. I very rarely used to travel by train, but since I bought my Wisper I will normally go to my local station at the weekend and get on a train, head for the country, and go for a ride.

This has been in the Basingstoke area, New Forest, Yeovil, Bristol, South Downs, Weymouth, IOW, and several other exotic locations.

All these lines have to be built and maintained, stations built, signalling provided, and trains constructed, fuelled and driven - just for me and my Wisper.

Colin

 

[flecc]

Maybe these comparisons are not fair. The railways exist but an e-bike doesn't until it's bought.

If there were no railways at all and the choice was between building them all over the country from scratch or people having e-bikes, the rail advantage is far from clear.
.

 

[piotrmacheta]

I took my car off the road in Jan 2009 and use my electric bike to commute and for shopping trips and anything less than about 20 miles. I have a motorbike for long trips and it gives 60 to 70mpg. My car used to give 20mpg or less on the short trips. After 17 months without using the car I don't miss it anymore.

I have a 190W solar panel and a 400W wind turbine in my garden and I use the electricity produced to charge my batteries for going to work etc. I work 6 miles away but frequently go the 8 mile route. In a day I typically use 160Whr which is about 3.2kWhr a month. In March the solar panel generated 10kWhr and year average is about 5kWhr per month.

This means that if you have a typical <20 miles per day comute you could generate all your power from a 200W solar panel - as the meerkats say - simples, thuuuch.

PS Solar panel was about £600.

PPS the wind turbine is rubbish at 16Whr per month but I have had 250Whr - problem is I live on an estate.

Hope someone thought this was interesting.

 

[Old Timer]

One of the problems with the finger wagging community is that they lack a sense of humour. It is this, as much as anything, that makes people disregard what they say.

Personally, I have an electric bike and a Brompton folding bike and I shall use both of them as I see fit.

In general, you are talking to adults here and when they want advice, they ask for it.

Couldn`t agree more Lemmy. With all the things going on in the world I`ll be the first to admit that if I take the bike rather than the car it`s to save me money and keep me fit. if that helps the planet fine and if not then so be it. Maybe I`m getting selfish but after my recent brush with death I`m afraid I get up each day and do what I want to do( without affecting anyone elses pleasure obviously)

 

[Chief eZee Power]

Punishment

"But guess who is going to pay for all these - the gasoline consumers, and eventually works it way to affect everyone one way or the other"

I dont think this is necessarily true in this case. BP will obivously be held to account for this disaster, but they will not be in a position to increase oil and gas prices to recoup losses as prices are set by OPEC and BP's competitors certainly aren't going to be agreeing to prop up BP by all increasing their prices. This just would not be acceptable.

Even if the costs run into billions, BP made about 10bn proift last year, nae bother for them to cover it.

None of us don't know how much BP will have to dole out for this mishap, like you said, even a couple of billion will not make a big difference to BP, as of now already 30 billion is wiped of the share value of BP for this. Then you could imagine all the greenies up in arms against further exploitations of un-spoiled areas for drilling and extractions, and the politicians listen if it makes a difference to their vote count. Then OPEC will then be rubbing their hand with glee that there will be less competition with ever increasing demands. China has already over taken US as the biggest customer of Saudi. So will all the other oil company knows that they could charge more because it will cost more so much more to bring them up. It goes on and on.

For me I think it is futile to check what exactly my carbon foot print would be and go micro management on that. For me it is the philosophy and my consience to follow, I don't know if religion would be a way to compare it.
Certainly I don't discount nor discourage many other ways of reducing the environment impact, using the mass transits, trains, more fuel efficient cars, and what-ever.

Next if I have to apologise, I am not British and I certainly don't have the same sense of humour. Many people around the world could enjoy watching Mr. Bean but I dislike it very much, and I don't go around offending people for the fun of it.

W W Ching
Chief eZee Operator

 

[Alex728]

if we actually lived in a country where 500 people were sensible enough to abandon the train for e-bikes, surely the train company would realise this too, and even reduce fares so 500 other people moved from their car to the train, or better still put on extra carriages so people can put their bikes (powered or unpowered) on the train for longer distances?

A great annoyance of mine is the exorbitant cost of getting to London or SE England by train from here - often people drive because its cheaper even in single-occupancy vehicles - with subsequent greater impact of congestion on the A12/A14, collisions, and environmental damage..

getting back to the ebikes though, if they are going to displace other forms of transport and not stay in cupboards, they need to be reliable and backed up by strong customer service and timely repairs across the UK (not just confined to affluent parts of the country)

Even today you need to be fairly mechanically/tech minded to be able to run an ebike and even the expensive ones are prone to minor but annoying issues which are fixable for those who have engineering skills but others might be at the mercy of local mechanics and their timescales...

 

[lemmy]

getting back to the ebikes though, if they are going to displace other forms of transport and not stay in cupboards, they need to be reliable and backed up by strong customer service and timely repairs across the UK (not just confined to affluent parts of the country)

Most servicing of an e-bike involves the cycle parts and ought be everyday fare for any LBS but from reports on this forum (and from personal experience), many seem to regard them as alien to 'proper' bikes.

I'm sure that will change as the e-bikes become better known and accepted as a logical addition to two wheeled transport.

For myself, having a Kalkhoff, the biggest thing that could put me off buying one (it didn't, of course) is the fact that the only dealer is 150 miles from me.
I'd like it if they had shops and servicing all over the UK and I imagine they would too!

What overcame my concerns re the distant dealership was that Flecc, in his writings on the Panasonic system made it plain that it was a well developed and robust system and likely to be around for years to come, so with luck I wouldn't need to visit the dealer.

 

[Tim]

For myself, having a Kalkhoff, the biggest thing that could put me off buying one (it didn't, of course) is the fact that the only dealer is 150 miles from me.
I'd like it if they had shops and servicing all over the UK and I imagine they would too!

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/6024-50cycles-shop-london.html

 

[Barry Heaven]

I took my car off the road in Jan 2009 and use my electric bike to commute and for shopping trips and anything less than about 20 miles. I have a motorbike for long trips and it gives 60 to 70mpg. My car used to give 20mpg or less on the short trips. After 17 months without using the car I don't miss it anymore.

I have a 190W solar panel and a 400W wind turbine in my garden and I use the electricity produced to charge my batteries for going to work etc. I work 6 miles away but frequently go the 8 mile route. In a day I typically use 160Whr which is about 3.2kWhr a month. In March the solar panel generated 10kWhr and year average is about 5kWhr per month.

This means that if you have a typical <20 miles per day comute you could generate all your power from a 200W solar panel - as the meerkats say - simples, thuuuch.

PS Solar panel was about £600.

PPS the wind turbine is rubbish at 16Whr per month but I have had 250Whr - problem is I live on an estate.

Hope someone thought this was interesting.

Very interesting piotrmacheta. Myself, I use a 150w solar panel. This was built onto the side of a summer house 3 years ago and mainly provides 12v power. I eventually hooked up a true sine wave inverter to provide some main power. When I got my Pro Connect I started to use it to charge the battery. I don't have to use mine for a daily commute as I'm home-based so it copes with the power demands quite easily.

 

[Alex728]

I'd like it if they had shops and servicing all over the UK and I imagine they would too!

I'm not sure about london, but if the Raleigh venture takes off then surely loads of LBSs will be trained to service Panasonic based e-bikes?

 

[flecc]

I'm not sure about london, but if the Raleigh venture takes off then surely loads of LBSs will be trained to service Panasonic based e-bikes?

Any bike shop can carry out normal servicing of these bikes Alex, that's the whole principle of Panasonic's design. The unit itself is intended to be treated as a sealed one, only the cycle chain drive with it's simple one circlip held drive sprocket concerning the bike shop. Changing that is easier then changing a rear hub sprocket.

If a unit needs to be changed, it's just three bolts and connector plugs that cannot be mixed up, probably easier than changing a bottom bracket.

All well within the capabilities of any cycle shop's repair person, and any reluctance is probably just due to unwarranted fear.
.

 

[nab]

how problematic then are the hub bikes for a general bike technician to repair? from what you describe there flecc, it sounds like that would be a major plus point of owning the panasonic style bike.

 

[Mussels]

how problematic then are the hub bikes for a general bike technician to repair? from what you describe there flecc, it sounds like that would be a major plus point of owning the panasonic style bike.

Hub bikes are not hard to service at all but they are an unknown and with the slim profit margins bike shops are on I doubt they want the risk.

 

[flecc]

how problematic then are the hub bikes for a general bike technician to repair? from what you describe there flecc, it sounds like that would be a major plus point of owning the panasonic style bike.

The hub motor bikes do have more technical servicing requirements since their components are scattered and interwired. Typically there's separate motor, controller, remote battery and independent handlebar units, and there's the internal gears to be greased which needs the motor to be stripped. Some motors require stripping for brush changes. SLA equipped bikes need multiple batteries connected and interwired.

The completely sealed and fully waterproof Panasonic unit incorporates controller, motor, gearing etc, none of which have to be serviced, indeed there are no spares available for that, other than the chain drive sprocket. The battery mounting is close coupled to the unit, and the single handlebar controller is a sealed unit. The cable loom from the handlebar controller has connectors to the unit which physically cannot be mixed up. Apart from changing a worn sprocket, the only other thing that might rarely crop up is changing a damaged battery connector platform, well within the capability of anyone who connects up bike dynamos as part of their job. Therefore any LBS can look after Panasonic unit equipped bikes and need never fear them.
.

 

[Alex728]

how problematic then are the hub bikes for a general bike technician to repair? from what you describe there flecc, it sounds like that would be a major plus point of owning the panasonic style bike.

there's a cable coming out of the hub, which needs to be disconnected from the controller and subsequently reconnected and any tools to remove freewheels and the like need to be able to fit over the 12mm(?) spindle.

However on many motors this cable terminates in a large multiway plug which needs to be disassembled and reassembled. A fiddly job but not exactly rocket science..

 

[nab]

this all seems to be a very important plus for the panasonics. i haven't seen much written about this anywhere before. i think i read somewhere that they are more reliable too....?

also the servicing issue of buying a bike from a non-local dealer appears to be flattened out. sounds like i could order, say, a kalkhoff through the post and be much more likely to keep it working smoothly without specialist assistance.

 

[flecc]

They are indeed very reliable. many of the original units are running from as far back as 2001. That original unit did have a couple of known weaknesses which caused a very occasional failure, but the later unit introduced from 2006 addressed those issues successfully and appears to be totally reliable.

I run a support site for them, mainly for the older unit where I recommend some repairs that can be carried out by owners or dealers. The support for the newer unit mainly concerns matters to do with correct chain adjustment and ownership advice.

Panasonic Support Site
.

 

[nab]

good info. thanks.

looking forward to trying the raleigh dover then when they become available which should apparently be sometime in june.

 

[Miznomer]

Another variable to consider when assessing the overall environmental impact of electric bikes is all the extra trips we take just because it's easy and fun. I just went for a spin around the block - four miles of hilly countryside - something i would rarely willingly undertake previously, but now with the electric assist it's all too easy - so while i will use the bike in some instances where i would have used the car, (a net energy saving) i will also use the bike in many instances where i would otherwise have stayed at home (a net loss). I suspect i'm not the only one!