Wheel building

[103Alex1]

Still wavering on whether to try building a wheel with a CST and 13G spokes. Basically, having replaced the broken spokes on my other regular wheels I now have a better idea of how things fit together in principle at least.

Am I right in thinking that :

1) You feed through all the spokes assuming you have them of the right length on both sides of the motor

2) You get (or can get) a spoke pattern which shows you what goes where, how to align in the rim relative to the valve and what order to install the spokes so they overlap / underlap correctly

3) You provisionally tighten the nipples using a spoke wrench (which I now have)

4) You enter the mysterious world of "wheel truing"

I reckon I could probably get up to 4) OK with some proper instructions, but still in the dark on getting the 'truing' right

Have I missed anything about spoke tension etc. which would need to be factored in ? Looking at my e-mail message updates tonight I might be looking at this sooner rather than later

d8veh, tried to send you a msg a few times over past weeks but your inbox is max'd out and can't take any. Could you msg me an e-mail or something .. wd be v. grateful viz couple of matters I asked about before New Year .

 

[jerrysimon]

Small wheel building but the principle is the same for all

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/4747-diy-stage-4-16-wheel-lacing-building-photos.html#post60153

or

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/5090-wheel-building-tongxin-brompton-wheel.html#post64437

Both the threads above document myself and another guy on the forum (Dan) as we built our first wheels a few years ago. I have now built many more and most recently love building small radial spoked wheels which whilst fine in my small wheel, low powered hub application probably not appropriate for most larger wheel hub motor builds .

Plus go on youtube and you will find many videos showing you how to do it.


[video=youtube_share;qTb3x5VO69Y]http://youtu.be/qTb3x5VO69Y[/video]


Regards

Jerry

 

[Jeremy]

I'd always fought shy of wheel building until about 6 months ago. I then decided to give it a go, printed off the instructions in the "bicycle bible" (a.k.a. the late, great, Sheldon Brown :Wheelbuilding) and found that the job was surprisingly easy.

I've now built four wheels, three with hub motors and a normal front wheel. It's a remarkably straightforward thing to do, with no special tools needed other than a spoke key and a truing stand (mine's home made from bits of scrap wood and works just fine).

I'd recommend having a go, it's very satisfying to ride around on wheels you've built yourself.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I learnt how to do it from Sheldon Brown's guide:
Wheelbuilding
My inbox now has space.

 

[103Alex1]

Thx jerrysimon / Jeremy. I guess if you never try you never learn... and it could get quite theraputic if you got into the right mindset !

I learnt how to do it from Sheldon Brown's guide:
Wheelbuilding
My inbox now has space.

Thx ! ... Just had a brief skim though that - am I right in thinking a semi-tangent cross 3 pattern is the best for hub brakes and CST combo ?

The tools bit also mentions rim tape - does that get supplied by BMS with rims or do you have to buy it separately ?

Also are 2mm brass washers needed with their spokes or do these basically fit (210mm) ?

I've seen quite a lot of mention of washers / spacers for dealing fitting built wheels into dropouts (aside from torque arms which I have noted are necessary or at lest desirable depending on the motor used). Are there standard sets of these that are likely to be suitable or do you have to wait till wheel sorted then go look for them depending on how it fits ?

Thx

 

[Old_Dave]

Just had a brief skim though that - am I right in thinking a semi-tangent cross 3 pattern is the best for hub brakes and CST combo ?

Not necessarily, some (me as well) see the simple logic of radial, depending of course on sizes

The tools bit also mentions rim tape - does that get supplied by BMS with rims or do you have to buy it separately ?

They don't supply tape,, if your going to use higher pressures like 60 psi then you will be better getting the thicker tape rather than the thin rubbery stuff.

Also are 2mm brass washers needed with their spokes or do these basically fit (210mm) ?

Should fit... But thin spokes in big hub holes need washers.

I've seen quite a lot of mention of washers / spacers for dealing fitting built wheels into dropouts (aside from torque arms which I have noted are necessary or at lest desirable depending on the motor used). Are there standard sets of these that are likely to be suitable or do you have to wait till wheel sorted then go look for them depending on how it fits ?

Nothing's standard, lol
Wait and see




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Deleted member 4366]

If you ordered the 13g 210mm spokes, it'll be a cross 2 pattern. You don't need any washers or ferrules.

 

[103Alex1]

OK - guess I will have to wait on the washers ... just trying to get everything I need if I can to avoid as many (unavoidable) 4-day bits & bobs e-bay purchase waits, just when I'm all fired up to get on the trail

They don't supply tape,, if your going to use higher pressures like 60 psi then you will be better getting the thicker tape rather than the thin rubbery stuff.

That's helpful - something else I could get in ready. Rim size 26". Any recommendations ?

If you ordered the 13g 210mm spokes, it'll be a cross 2 pattern. You don't need any washers or ferrules.

Great - that's a big help.

 

[Jeremy]

My rule of thumb is that, unless you're using a very small diameter (less than 130mm) hub motor, then 2 cross is as much as you're going to be able to manage for a 26" - 700C wheel, one cross or radial for a less than 20" wheel.

Radial spoking is OK for low power hub motors in small wheels, but it's really better, IMHO, to aim for 1 or 2 cross if you can, especially if the hub motor in question can generate a significant amount of torque. For example, I'd not want to ride a 20" wheel with a MAC or BMC running at a kW or two with radial spokes, as it'd be asking for early failure.

Having the spokes running at an angle allows the torque to be transmitted to the rim with less bending stress on the spokes, which is good in terms of increased fatigue life. With really big hub motors in small diameter rims (like the big Crystalyte 406 in a 20" wheel I had at one time) then radial spokes are the only way to go.

The web site I linked to above (and I see d8veh repeated the link again) to the late Sheldon Brown's website is really the bible for all things to do with the repair and maintenance of bikes. His words on radial spoking (here: Wheelbuilding) are very relevant. Note the comment in that section about NOT using radial spokes with a hub brake. This is for exactly the same reason that radial spokes are not a good idea with a powerful hub motor.

 

[Old_Dave]

Rim tape.. something like this.

NEW BIKE RIBBON MOUNTAINBIKE BIKE CYCLE 26" WHEEL RIM TAPE X 2 | eBay

 

[Jeremy]

Rim tape.. something like this.

NEW BIKE RIBBON MOUNTAINBIKE BIKE CYCLE 26" WHEEL RIM TAPE X 2 | eBay

Have you used the Velox adhesive stuff? (Velox Bike Wheel Rim Tape | eBay ) I've found that it seems to stay in place better on double wall rims and it seems to be thick enough to not get pushed down the inner hole. The 19mm wide tape seems about right for most narrow (around 20 to 22mm width across the flange) rims.

 

[Old_Dave]

Have you used the Velox adhesive stuff?

No, but I've now added that item to my watch list for next time

 

[103Alex1]

Thanks for the tips. I guess you cut that Velox stuff to size ? Anyone know what the rim diameter of BMS-supplied 26" rims is ?

If it's adhesive, am I right in thinking you'd have to cut into that and re-tape over again if you ever had to remove a nipple once it had been fitted ?

The only rim I've actually worked on was the Bontrager race rim that came with my Trek ... it was labelled "tubeless-ready" and there was a profiled thick rubber strip inside it which was almost "shrunk in" to the rim. In order to lift it to get at the holes beneath, you had to insert a flathead screwdriver to the valve hole to prize it away and then re-site the screwdriver horizontally across the rim under the lifted rubber strip. Then run it along the top of the rim with a bit of cloth under it to save the powder coating until you reached the nipple hole you wanted. Definitely didn't look like it was meant to come out completely.

I am guessing from looking at the rim tape links that those Bontrager rims were an unusual construction ?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

On the BMSBattery rims, I don't use conventional tape. Instead, I go round 2 or 3 times with pvc insulating tape. Much cheaper and does the job,

 

[Old_Dave]

Much cheaper and does the job

Doh !!!

 

[catsnapper]

Velox cloth rim tape must be one of the most tested and proven products on the market, there is very little point in going for anything else - as many riders have found out when trying the 'latest' alternative.

Alex - as you said, the wheel is tubeless ready, the plastic sealing rim tape was was meant to form an airtight seal so you can use the wheel without tubes. A now popular modification with very variable reliability

Regarding radial versus cross lacing and number of crosses....With a 26" or 700c wheel the main advantage of radial is cosmetic, although it does have higher lateral strength than a cross laced wheel and for the weight-weenies it saves some weight. A 4x cross wheel will be more flexible under lateral and radial loading, but stiffest under braking and acceleration.
The reasons for not using radial for disc or hub brakes and motors in larger wheels are well proven and accepted.

With a large hub and shorter spokes the number of crosses is a trade off against the increasing angle of the spoke at the rim. An excessive angle will increase the risk of spoke failure and possible rim damage - especially with some of the thin walled rims that get supplied with e-wheel kits.

When you get down to 20" and 16" rims with large hubs, the differences between radial and cross lacing gets less clear, as other factors that were not significant with larger wheels become relevant and compromises are made for practical as well as technical reasons.

Building a satisfactory wheel with minimal equipment is reasonably easy, but the demands made by riders with bigger motors covering longer distances on a daily basis, often on poor roads, needs good quality parts and more attention to optimum assembly, correct and even tension and the frequently discussed and often misunderstood de-stressing - some suggested techniques are closer to de-struction than de-stressing

Alan

 

[oigoi]

De-stressing ? Whats that all about then sounds intriguing

I have also got on fine just using insulation tape as a rim tape many times

 

[catsnapper]

Otherwise known as stress relieving - like humans, spokes need the stress taken away or they might snap
Google it and you'll find a wide variety of techniques, including some that may well destroy your wheel!

Re the insulation tape - a very popular substitute for proper rim tape, except with the riders that have discovered it's not always a perfect substitute.....

Alan

De-stressing ? Whats that all about then sounds intriguing

 

[Jeremy]

Re the insulation tape - a very popular substitute for proper rim tape, except with the riders that have discovered it's not always a perfect substitute.....

Alan

Indeed.

I made the mistake (because I was in a hurry to get the tyre on a newly delivered wheel) of using electrical insulation tape. Worked fine, until I got a puncture. When I took the tube out to fix it it was pretty sticky, as the adhesive on the insulation tape had crept out under pressure and made its way all around the inside of the tyre. Not sure whether it did any harm, but it was a pain to clean off the tube - I ended up having to wipe the tube clean with isopropyl alcohol to get it to a state where I could patch it.

The Velox tape can be carefully peeled off and re-used, as it has a fairly low tack adhesive (presumably to avoid the insulation tape adhesive problem). It comes with the valve hole pre-punched near the start and you then just cut off the excess (with an overlap of an inch or so) once you wrapped it around the rim.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

It works for me.I've fixed loads of punctures and never found that it had moved. It always looks the same as when I put it on. I use Poundland tape - 5 rolls for a pound. Saneagle has the same because I did his wheel for him and the two on his other bike, which his son now uses.