Which bike for off-road?

[trickletreat]

I have just read through the whole thread and could find no mention of Gruber Assist...have these been experienced by any one here? I spoke to Steve at electric mountainbikes.com today, and he now has them on his site, with links to video clips. They look light and discreet[900grammes], being hidden in the seat tube, with gearing onto crank in bottom bracket. Batteries are light as well, with quoted 1.5hrs of assistance, whatever that means. You need a seat tube with internal diameter of 31.6mm.

I already have a Heinzman rear steel geared hub, which steve fitted to a Montague swiss lx mtb, but I have now fitted it to a trike. It is very powerful, but heavy. I have spoken to the guys at icetrikes, and with a small amount of machining the gruber should fit in there new folding light trikes... this could get expensive.

Anyway the gruber in a mountain bike would be protected in the seat tube, and the batteries being small and light could be carried in a ruck sack with brake away cable.Gruber Antrieb - Gruber Assist - Fahrradantriebe » Englisch

Sorry to add to your choices!
nigel

 

[flecc]

We have looked at the Gruber Assist previously Nigel, but not with very high approval. It's very low powered and the angle drive inefficiency loses some of that meagre power.

Nice idea to hide it like that, but the method is far too restrictive. A Tongxin nano motor as in the Cytronex is also very discreet in appearance, far more powerful and very much more silent:

 

[themutiny]

Hi Tony

Bit mischievous posting a pic of the Super Six. As far as I know only one member has one,(the originator of the thread), and less than half a dozen actually exist (and I'm green with envy). Oh well, just off 'slumming it' on the Synapse...

Agree with the rest of the sentiment though. I think Mark should investigate the off-road potential, although I'm fairly sure he's quite busy building his business.

Cheers,

Nick

 

[eTim]

Ahh, the search continues, I've now moved from the full suss conversion idea - too heavy, too complex for my current stable, too expensive (in the case of the Flyer) and cadence issues with a Panasonic - to looking at these (in no particular order):

Thorn Sterling T h o r n C y c l e s L t d.

Thorn Raven Tour T h o r n C y c l e s L t d.

Thorn Nomad T h o r n C y c l e s L t d.

I'm test riding on Friday - I'm going to be interested in the Wisper and Cytronex kits when they appear as I think one of the Thorn bikes could be suitable.

Anyone have any experience with the Thorn's ?

 

[themutiny]

Hi Tim

Sorry but no.

I have a particular interest in this thread because I am also looking for an off-road solution (although I'm a bit less hardcore than you I think), and I am fairly confident that you will make the right choice. Then I will copy you...

Now expecting a torrent of posts from David Miall

Cheers,

Nick

PS we must sort out a ride soon...

 

[eTim]

Hi Tim

Sorry but no.

I have a particular interest in this thread because I am also looking for an off-road solution (although I'm a bit less hardcore than you I think), and I am fairly confident that you will make the right choice. Then I will copy you...

Now expecting a torrent of posts from David Miall

Cheers,

Nick

PS we must sort out a ride soon...

Yes, but make it a Chinese copy. I'm planning on a trip to Winchester on the bike tomorrow to get a battery looked at, if you've got any free time....

PS. The Thorn's are for off-road touring, or just off-roading, road touring, road commuting, and round the world trips, very configurable apparently, I'm saving the Marin for the hardcore killing myself kind of stuff

 

[themutiny]

Yes, but make it a Chinese copy. I'm planning on a trip to Winchester on the bike tomorrow to get a battery looked at, if you've got any free time....

PS. The Thorn's are for off-road touring, or just off-roading, very configurable apparently, I'm saving the Marin for the hardcore killing myself kind of stuff

Yeah reckon the Thorns are more my bag. Can't make tomorrow as I have work so it's weekends for me. The weather is starting to get a bit kinder, so think we might aim for next month sometime if you're up for it.

What's wrong with the battery? I only ask because I bought one recently, and it doesn't seem as good as the other ones. I've put it down to user error so far, but if there is a QC issue I would like to know?

Cheers,

Nick

 

[HarryB]

Hi Tony
I think Mark should investigate the off-road potential, although I'm fairly sure he's quite busy building his business.
Cheers,

Nick

He would have to develop a new motor and I am not sure that he is doing that The beauty of his bikes is the low resistance tongxin motor and small capacity battery. The motor is completely unsuitable for off road use, the battery would run out of juice pretty quickly as well.

 

[eTim]

Yeah reckon the Thorns are more my bag. Can't make tomorrow as I have work so it's weekends for me. The weather is starting to get a bit kinder, so think we might aim for next month sometime if you're up for it.

What's wrong with the battery? I only ask because I bought one recently, and it doesn't seem as good as the other ones. I've put it down to user error so far, but if there is a QC issue I would like to know?

Cheers,

Nick

No worries, I'm only free as I've taken a week off to look after a bathroom fitter doing some 'home improvements', any weekend is good for me at the moment.

The battery that came with the S6 is the one I'm having looked at, I've made three conditioning runs and can't get it to charge much longer than an hour and range is down. Mark is going to stick it on his conditioning charger, I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[themutiny]

Thanks Harry.

Not sure I agree with that though. If you read Caph's post about the Galileo, in the off-road domain things seem to be quite different. I mean when was the last time you saw a post recommending 24v over 36v?

You may of course be right - after all I am a cyclist first and an e-cyclist second. ALL of my 'knowledge' on the subject of e-bikes has been gleaned from this site. However, what I do know is that Mark is an innovator, and I was suggesting that he could bring this to bear on the (so far) relatively untapped potential of the 'off-road', or more accurately 'soft-road' market. It's quite a familiar conundrum in automotive circles, and has been addressed in sooo many ways.

It is a market niche that should be addressed. I was suggesting that Mark might be the man?

Of course I could just ask him.....

Regards,

Nick

 

[themutiny]

No worries, I'm only free as I've taken a week off to look after a bathroom fitter doing some 'home improvements', any weekend is good for me at the moment.

The battery that came with the S6 is the one I'm having looked at, I've made three conditioning runs and can't get it to charge much longer than an hour and range is down. Mark is going to stick it on his conditioning charger, I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks Tim

Any battery findings I would be grateful to hear of via PM.

How about we also set a date/location?

I have done rides with various forum members. All have been good experiences, but from your posts, (apart from the fact I can't justify a S6) would indicate we have quite a lot in common

I'm away to the Somerset levels for a week early/mid April, but how about 25/4?

Cheers,

Nick

 

[HarryB]

Thanks Harry.

Not sure I agree with that though. If you read Caph's post about the Galileo, in the off-road domain things seem to be quite different. I mean when was the last time you saw a post recommending 24v over 36v?

You may of course be right - after all I am a cyclist first and an e-cyclist second. ALL of my 'knowledge' on the subject of e-bikes has been gleaned from this site. However, what I do know is that Mark is an innovator, and I was suggesting that he could bring this to bear on the (so far) relatively untapped potential of the 'off-road', or more accurately 'soft-road' market. It's quite a familiar conundrum in automotive circles, and has been addressed in sooo many ways.

It is a market niche that should be addressed. I was suggesting that Mark might be the man?

Of course I could just ask him.....

Regards,

Nick

I have nothing but praise for Mark's operation. I keenly await the innovations in his kit when it comes.

 

[eTim]

Nick,

I'll pencil in the 25th April and PM you my mobile so we can stay in touch.

Cheers, Tim.

 

[eTim]

I have nothing but praise for Mark's operation. I keenly await the innovations in his kit when it comes.

The 'off-road' setting I would like to see in any kit would be a setting for off-road, ie a low power, high torque setting to assist through dodgy climbs and mud, probably at around 5-6 mph or lower, I wouldn't like to be doing much more than 10mph off road with the motor turned on, unless it was on a bike capable of taking the hits and your body is also capable of handling it, I can do this on the Marin 15-20mph downhill

It's a shame that the off-road setting touted for ebikes actually means going above 15.5mph as that would be uncontrollable off-road.

The Bionx system wins in this respect as does the Panasonic. However, the Bionx is heavy at the rear wheel and has high overall weight and precludes the use of a hub gear, it's also expensive and I think I would have cadance issues with the Panasonic especially when trying to power through mud/rocks/roots in a low gear. If Cytronex produce a kit that could be used off-road then it will be a winner as it's a lighter weight system with assistance when you need it. Yes it's niche, but so are their road bikes and the off-road version should also be aimed at people that want to use their legs, have a lighter weight machine that looks 'normal'.

With the Panasonic, I'm not entirely sure how this would react off-road, I've not test ridden one and trying one in an off-road scenario I suspect will be more difficult, are 50 cycles anywhere near a tricky off-road section?

I know that the 906xc has 6, no, 5 power settings, maybe the lowest setting would be suitable for off-road, but I have no details for this system and how it has been designed to work. I'm not sure how the 906 will perform when the battery runs out and what the Alfine 8 speed will do on the hill climbs without battery power. At least a 14 speed Rolhoff should give good climbing ability without battery power (as on a non-converted or converted Thorn for example).

 

[themutiny]

Cool. Let's leave it fluid, I could come to you as I have a hankering after the 50mph+ club.

Cheers,

Nick

 

[HarryB]

The 'off-road' setting I would like to see in any kit would be a setting for off-road, ie a low power, high torque setting to assist through dodgy climbs and mud, probably at around 5-6 mph or lower, I wouldn't like to be doing much more than 10mph off road with the motor turned on, unless it was on a bike capable of taking the hits and your body is also capable of handling it, I can do this on the Marin 15-20mph downhill

It's a shame that the off-road setting touted for ebikes actually means going above 15.5mph as that would be uncontrollable off-road.

The Bionx system wins in this respect as does the Panasonic. However, the Bionx is heavy at the rear wheel and has high overall weight and precludes the use of a hub gear, it's also expensive and I think I would have cadance issues with the Panasonic especially when trying to power through mud/rocks/roots in a low gear. If Cytronex produce a kit that could be used off-road then it will be a winner as it's a lighter weight system with assistance when you need it. Yes it's niche, but so are their road bikes and the off-road version should also be aimed at people that want to use their legs, have a lighter weight machine that looks 'normal'.

With the Panasonic, I'm not entirely sure how this would react off-road, I've not test ridden one and trying one in an off-road scenario I suspect will be more difficult, are 50 cycles anywhere near a tricky off-road section?

I know that the 906xc has 6, no, 5 power settings, maybe the lowest setting would be suitable for off-road, but I have no details for this system and how it has been designed to work. I'm not sure how the 906 will perform when the battery runs out and what the Alfine 8 speed will do on the hill climbs without battery power. At least a 14 speed Rolhoff should give good climbing ability without battery power (as on a non-converted or converted Thorn for example).

I agree with this but I am saying that Mark would have to use another motor - not sure he is designing a new motor or sourcing one at the moment. The tongxin is lightweight but not particularly powerful. It can be geared to offer better assistance at a lower speeds but it would never be robust enough for any sort of off-road use.

The Wisper looks more promising as they will fit lower gearing if you request it. Not sure if the offer of lower gearing applies to the Dapush.The Dapush is still very new but I am sure it is more robust than the tonxin.

 

[Stumpi]

I spoke to Mark in Jan this year about the possibility of fitting a kit to my Marin but he said it was not possible at the moment. I also mentioned a proper off road Cytronex and there are no plans for one( although things change) I'm also not sure about the current motors being suitable. Living in a hilly area I recently purchased a 160rpm motor/wheel for my Cytronex(standard is the 175rpm) While this works very well on the steep road hills I cycle and pulls very cleanly from 7 mph I'm not sure its torquey enough for a proper uphill off road slog

 

[Wisper Bikes]

I know that the 906xc has 6, no, 5 power settings, maybe the lowest setting would be suitable for off-road, but I have no details for this system and how it has been designed to work.

Hi Tim

The lower assist settings simply restrict the power to the motor, they are there for extra range and do not lower the gear ratios.

Sorry.

All the best

David

 

[Straylight]

It really sounds like someone should comission flecc's idea of a motor that is both geared and direct drive, either switchable on request or automatically. I'm sure he'll correct me, but I think the theory is that it's geared for hill climbing, and direct for speed.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Hill climbing

It sounds brilliant.

Re direct drive hub motors; When the motor is working at low speeds against a large load the torque is very much higher than when the motor is cruising along at 15mph effectively giving the extra help needed on hills. The motor in this situation is giving an electric bike about half its driving force with the rider giving the rest through a low gear to the rear wheel. On a front wheel drive electric bike both wheels are getting similar amounts of power creating a 2 wheel drive bike, perfect for hill climbing in slippery conditions.

Best regards

David