emissions-free

You can set current limit and you can also set a max speed using the plug in CA. You need to ensure the controller is suitably equipped and that the controller is suitable for your type of motor. I do not believe you require hall sensors on your motor for the CA to limit the controller in this way. Look on the Ebike.ca website you can download the manual. It's all there. I very much doubt a 25A controller would do your Bafang motor much harm if you are running it at standard voltage. It will also be rpm limited at it's standard voltage so you will not get much more if any additional top speed from it. If you're gonna be using the motor for a lot of long steep hills, higher than standard current could become an issue.

I'm not a consumer and the last time I bought motors it was 10,000USD worth. Tongxin don't answer emails and from what I have seen they are very unreliable motors. They can keep their motors as there are plenty of other companies that do respond and have motors that don't fall apart if you look at them the wrong way Good luck with Ecity/BMSBattery. Great prices, pity they don't order the bits till they've got your money....

There's a nice looking cylindrical battery pack that is now becoming available that has a mounting to go onto the washer bottle. This is a 36V, 9Ah Li Ion pack. Also seen some 7Ah packs that are a bit smaller that bolt onto the seat tube or could go somewhere else. The kits that Bafang offer are very nicely finished with a single multicore connecting all the controls which all come to a single little box. They are not as cheap as the ebay kits but they they are still very reasonably priced. The big rear motor they do (BPM Climber) is a very nice motor for someone who needs a bit of torque for the hills and comes in 250, 350 and 500W with matching controllers. Bafang are also bringing out a sub 2kg motor as well, but the only place I've seen it so far was on their stand at last weeks Shanghai Bike Show I do agree that a big bulky battery on the top of a rack is not ideal but it's horses for courses. If you want a bike that will do 40mph and give you 30-50km range at a descent pace (maybe 1KWhr) it's gonna be a little bulky. My bike does that and the total weight of the kit added to the bike is about 17kg, including dual hub motors, dual controllers and 48V 20Ah of A123 prismatics. Almost 5KW max power and 68kph max speed on the flat If you only want a small assist then a Lithium Polymer pack can do that with less that 3kg, maybe even 2kg and very small dimensions. There are motors that weigh only 2kg. I made a bike up for a friend which consisted of a budget aluminium framed bike (14.something kg), 36V 6Ah LifePO4 Pack (abt 3.5kg) and Bafang front motor (~3kg) with their kit. Total weight was ~22kg. With a 2kg motor and a Lithium Polymer Pack even on that budget frame it would be between 20 and 21kg.

What's so special about the Dapush or Dapu setup? I've tried it and didn't find it any better or worse than other stuff that is available from Bafang or Ananda. I found it very similar in size and performance to the Ananda 108 motor, smaller than the Bafang front motor but not as quiet. I believe it's slightly more expensive than an equivalent Bafang setup but it's hardly a high end premium product IMO and isn't a better performer IMO. There are also lots of batteries coming online that are packaged to fit within the frame triangle. I can think of at least 3 commonly available generic cases that are being used by the battery pack manufacturers in China. These are all readily available parts, you just contact the manufacturer and order them, maybe 50 or 100 pieces MOQ.

That's absolutely spot on and this is how packs in EVs can have such a long lifecycle. The only problem with actually trying to implement this on your average ebike is that although you can control the DOD it's not so easy to control the charging level. The BMS inside is fixed to certain values as is the charger. These are not overly high charge levels although the HVC on a typical LiFePO4 BMS is 3.9V whereas the recommended charge level is 3.65V so if you've got a bit of a weak cells it's likely to only get weaker if it hits HVC every time the pack is charged. Charging in the cold is another big no no, as that 3.65V at -10degC is equivalent to a much higher charge voltage at 20degC. If you then throw in a weak cell which hits HVC into the bargain you can then see why things start to go bad. The only way I can see to control the level is charge is to use a BMS that is either adjustable or fixed to lower Balance voltages and a charger set up to this lower voltage. The best solution IMO is a proper balance charger that does some form of singe cell charging and is adjustable. With this solution the BMS in the pack can be much simpler.

There's 2 terms commonly used, DOD, Depth of Discharge and SOC, State of Charge. DOD of 100% is completely discharged, no more power remaining. 100% SOC is fully charged and is related to temperature as well as voltage so it's not as simple as saying 100% SOC is 3.65V for LifePO4. The same charge voltage at lower temperatures is actually a higher SOC which is why charging in low temperatures is not recommended. Keeping to say no more than 90% SOC for charging and discharging to no more than 80% will increase the lifecycle of all lithium based batteries as far as I know.

No worries I'm only having a laugh Nothing wrong with some extra strong watts and you've always got to consider the tolerances in such things and different rolling radius of tyres etc ect just to ensure that everyone gets their fair share

A 20A controller on a 36V 250W ebike Is that legal?

Yeah I do believe it is feasible but I don't really have the time right now to take on another small project like engineering a complete solution. I have a big pack that is already overdue and it has been big headaches and untold time sorting out all the little details. Also I'm not so sure that it would actually make a big impact on the hill climbing ability. Is the battery sagging that bad under load? I doubt it TBH. At the end of the day 250W rated just doesn't actually do much especially when presented with a hill or a strong headwind. It's quite likely just limited power from the controller and motor combination and no amount of battery will fix that. The standard way to get a bit more power from a motor is a few more volts which would require an additional pack to be switched in series. It's all possible and none of it's rocket science but there's bound to be a few niggles and a bit of time to sort it all out. It might be simpler to just try and get hold of the higher power motor and controller combo that whisper offer, but be very careful venturing into the heady speeds of 15mph plus

Yeah of course RC lipo is good stuff but if over charged or over discharged it is liable to burst into flames. They sell fire proof bags for charging You can only get good lifecycles if you are very careful with not going to deep discharge levels. It is not forgiving and the prices are not much cheaper than these cells per Wh so if anything these facts make the prismatics even better value. Oh and by the way the 15Ah cells are not as high energy density as the 20Ah cells so a 15S 20Ah pack, 36.3V nominal would come in better than the above example I gave at 5.14Kg for an 11S 20Ah pack and you could use all the capacity without fear of it dramatically shortening the lifecycle or going up in flames. I've spoken to companies that manufacture high C rate LiPo that is used for RC and they state it is not safe in big packs. I can't see many auto manufactures going with lipo because they can save what 15% but you need to change the pack every 6 months and it bursts into flames if you let it go into the red All I'm trying to show is that there are new and better batteries coming without any real ifs or buts and things should only get better. These cells will likely not be in Ebikes but hopefully in lots of EV Cars in the not too distant future. I've already sold lots of these and the most of the remaining cells are likely already spoken for by an existing customer.

I was only referring to the cells themselves and yes I didn't state LiFePO4 in the but I did in the message. The 20Ah cells are generally 467g and are 3.3V nominal, 20Ah, so 66Whrs per cell. So they have an energy density of 141.3Whrs/kg combined with very high power density of something like 3000W/kg plus for bursts. They do this while still remaining 1 of the safest chemistry and offering exceptional lifecycle when tested for automobile applications. I'm not so sure that typical li polymer cells offer energy density equal to these figures and they definitely don't do 7000 cycles or 10-15 years.

I do take note and will look at trying to offer some more options. The A123 26650s in a small pack can still give great power if you haven't got far to go. There are also various Li Polymer and LiFePO4 pouch cells that give good performance in a compact package with sufficient current to easily power a Euro legal ebike. I used a 36V 6Ah pack for most of my commuting until recently. This can still give a genuine 10 miles at a good speed (illegal) with some pedaling, a good bit more if you pedal lots and go slow. Even in fairly standard LiFePO4 cylindrical cells with a proper case that is still only about 2.7kg. You really can't beat the A123 26650 cells though TBH and if you don't have far to go they are a good option in a 1 or 2 parallel configuration, plus they can deliver very illegal power if requested so absolutely no bother at legal power levels. I can get some of these made into small packs if anyone is interested. It's roughly 7USD per cell (3.3V, 2.3Ah) and I can add a small fairly low cost BMS (about 40USD) so it can be charged from a standard charger. A 36V 4.6Ah pack would work out to about 230USD plus shipping etc. Total weight less than 2kg

Thanks Paul Yeah I know these cells are not for everyone but if you were looking to have a slightly illegal bike... then these fit the bill very nicely. I will try to diversify a bit more in the future and start to supply packs with lower C ratings and price tags

Unfortunately I doubt these cells would fit into a typical ebike battery enclosure. The enclosures tend to be narrower than these cells. The 15Ah cells are approximately 15cm wide. The main hurdle to changing the cells in your batteries would be that LiPoly is typically smaller and lighter per Wh than LifePO4 so you might have trouble fitting equal capacity of LiFePO4 into that enclosure. It would also be tricky to find the appropriate sized cells that could make the best use of the available space inside the enclosure. Maybe you could find a an alternative complete battery that uses the same mountings and connections?? The enclosure used on the Torq looks very much like those that are commonly available but I don't know that model intimately so I wouldn't know for sure I'm afraid. Sorry I can't be of more help.

Gents, just thought I'd give my fellow countrymen the opportunity to get some really top quality Battery Packs at very competitive prices. I'm keeping the prices in USD as I think this is the fairest way as it is pretty much pegged to the Chinese RMB and I'd rather give everyone a level playing field rather than bump the pound price up to cover currency fluctuations. Bare cells are presently available at 37.50USD per 15Ah cell (typically test at 16Ah Plus). 20Ah cells are 50USD per pc. This is cheaper than the typical A123 26650 prices per Ah which are generally about 7USD for a 2.3Ah cell, or 3USD/Ah a opposed to my price of 2.5USD/Ah. The cells have the highest energy density of any available LiFePO4 cell. Weights and dimensions, not including tabs are as follows: Model: AHP 70165227 Model: AHP 68150211 Capacity: 20Ah Capacity: 15Ah Size: 7.0X 166X227mm Size: 6.8X 150X211mm Weight: 480g Weight: 400g This works out to 137.5Whrs/kg for the 20Ah and 123.75Whrs/kg. When you consider that the 20Ah cells actually weigh 467g and the 15Ah cells are typically 16Ah, this equates to 141Whrs/kg and 132Whrs/kg for the 20 and 15Ah cells respectively. High energy density Lifepo4 is typically 100Whrs/kg. These cells also give high power and are capable of approximately 20C constant but I would recommend usage of around 10C average even if high peak currents well beyond this are used. A pack made of these is on a completely different level to typical 2 or 3C packs. Figures such as 7000 cycles and 10-15 years lifecycle in the EV application they were intended for are claimed. I've spent a lot of time to develop a pack termination method I'm now happy with and the price breakdown is as follows for a 1p type pack: - termination parts = 2USD per cell - power plugs, both sides (controller and battery side), dual pole 50A (2pcs) = 6USD or Power Pole 45A (2 pairs) = 4USD - assembly including parts, connecting a BMS, heat shrink, basic mechanical protection and electrical isolation = 3.5USD per cell - assembling the pack with terminations only, for end user to implement into their own case = 2.5USD per cell Parts prices: Chargers USD 36V 5A 61 48V 5A 65 BMS 12S 30A 46 12S 60A 88 16S 30A 54 16S 80A 95 High Power Connectors 2 pole 175A = 10USD per connector 75A Power Pole = 6USD per pair 2 pole 350A = 15USD per connector heat shrink (63cm) = 3USD per m Below are some examples of fully assembled packs. Part assembled packs will be a little cheaper as per my above details. It is very straightforward to tie in a BMS, so you're welcome fix your own method for pack balancing, HVC and LVC protection. I'm not a believer in going without a BMS and do not think it will work very well with these cells. They rise so quickly at the end of the charge it is essential to have some cell level balancing/protection IMO. Example fully assembled Pack Pricing, not including charger: 12S 15Ah Description Quantity Unit cost Sub Total 15Ah Cell 12 37.5 450 30A Const BMS 1 46 46 Termination Parts 12 2 24 Full Assembly/Parts 12 3.5 42 45A Power Pole (pair) 1 2.00 2 Total 564 USD 16S 15Ah Description Quantity Unit cost Sub Total 15Ah Cell 16 37.5 600 30A Const BMS 1 54 54 Termination Parts 16 2 32 Full Assembly/Parts 16 3.5 56 45A Power Pole (pair) 1 2.00 2 Total 744 USD 12S 20Ah Description Quantity Unit cost Sub Total 15Ah Cell 12 50 600 30A Const BMS 1 54 54 Termination Parts 12 2 24 Full Assembly/Parts 12 3.5 42 45A Power Pole (pair) 1 2.00 2 Total 722 USD 16S 20Ah Description Quantity Unit cost Sub Total 15Ah Cell 16 50 800 30A Const BMS 1 54 54 Termination Parts 16 2 32 Full Assembly/Parts 16 3.5 56 45A Power Pole (pair) 1 2.00 2 Total 944 USD Shipping is by either EMS at 35% discounted price, Air Freight which is generally a bit cheaper than EMS for most countries, sometimes significantly cheaper. The slow boat is also available and that is cheap, but can take a looooong time if you're unlucky and miss the boat... Paypal is 6% (my cost, 3.4% commission plus 2.5% money exchange commission, thieving bast....s :evil: ) or wire transfer to Hong Kong with no commission and much preferred. Buyer pays the bank fees. I'm very busy with a big parallel pack termination that I must finish but would give a lead time of 1 week (at present) for a standard pack build (should be quicker but I'd rather not make too many promises). If you want a pack built I'll accept a 100USD deposit and the remainder before shipment or just pay it up front, up to you.

I should add that I will happily supply the parts necessary for self assembly and this would save a bit. With the assembly parts I've developed it really isn't so difficult to assemble a pack yourself and no special tools are required. So if you were willing to get your hands dirty and let them get to UK on the slow boat you could have a 36V 15/16Ah pack with assembly parts (not assembled, no BMS or charger) delivered to the UK for about 360GBP. I used that pack above on a bike fitted with dual 500W motors and dual 25A controllers so 50A and in excess of 2000W. For most of the pack discharge the voltage under full load remains well over 37V. I'd be very interested if anybody can come up with any cell presently available cell type/pack for any cost that can deliver the power, energy density and cycle life, let alone this low price per Ah. This isn't hot air, look on Endless Sphere, lots of people have already had cells from me and I'm presently putting together a pack for a possible TTXGP bike.

Yes of course

I really think most do not comprehend the difference between a pack of these cells and run of the mill cells. The power they deliver is unbelievable. A pack like that would be 450USD for the cells (37.50USD a pc), about 80USD for assembly and parts, BMS 45USD, 5A charger 60USD, so 635USD or about 400GBP at todays terrible exchange rates. You'd also need to figure in shipping at maybe around 100USD and paypal commission if that was used.

Hi Gents, I've not been getting onto Pedelecs so much recently as I've been a bit busy with some rather special cells I've been working with. These cells are LiFePO4 and are produced by a very famous and regarded by many as the no. 1 cell manufacturer in the world. They certainly perform and not only have the highest energy density of any LiFePO4 cell currently available that I'm aware of, but they also produce amazing levels of current. How about 400A constant out of a 20Ah cell. Even the baby 15Ah cells will deliver 700A for a few second burst whilst maintaining voltage levels above 2.0V. They do not have a problem running an ezee motor Now if you were running 15 or 20 ezee motors, you might be pushing them a bit hard, but they could still do it. Nearly forgot, 7000 cycles lifecycle and 10-15 years if the SOC and DOD is controlled to 85% or so. Here's some size and weight details: Model: AHP 70165227 Model: AHP 68150211 Capacity: 20Ah Capacity: 15Ah Size: 7.0X 165X227mm Size: 6.8X 150X211mm Weight: 480g Weight: 400g These cells are a prismatic or foil pouch cell. I've been very busy with getting a good termination method for these cells and now have something I'm happy with. Here's a few pics of a 12S, 15Ah (actually they are generally 16Ah plus) pack I assembled today. This has a total weight of 5.2kg including BMS and a mechanical termination method that is a DIY job if you are reasonably competent. Anyway attached are a few pics of a 12S 15Ah pack 225mm * 150mm * 81mm (actually a bit thinner than above spec

Hi Tex, why don't you look at a reasonably powerful Geared Hub motor? 2 motors that would work well for you IMO are the Bafang BPM climber and the Puma motors. These are not the smallest motors but they are very powerful, maybe more power than you would want (although both offer lower powered versions). Both about 4kg. The other option is to just go with 1 of the smaller Bafang motors (about 3kg). Another option is the Ananda motors which are very small and compact at around 2kg, which again would meet your requirements.

Come on guys, these motors are the same motors that others are selling for 200euros, so at least 10% cheaper than other sources I've seen that do exactly the same as i do, Ship them from China to worldwide. These are every bit as good as the BMC motors but are a fraction of the price. I'm happy to ship by sea freight if you don't mind the wait which will significantly reduce costs. At todays exchange rates you are looking at approximately 160GBP by air or 135GBP by sea freight. If a few want to get together and arrange a group buy I'm sure I could come up with something to make you happy. Have a look on Endless Sphere for Cell_Man. I've been selling quite a bit on there and there's no bad feedback from anybody. These motors are not the cheap direct drive motor that you see on ebay, which typically cost less than half the price of these, they are a well proven geared hub motor. The 350W motor would be a bit cheaper again at somewhere around 150-155GBP. I really need to get my website up and running but I've been so busy with the very special prismatic cells and packs I've been selling that there never seems to be time. I'm living in China but I'm from the UK and I will be keeping some stock and spares in the UK to make it easier for customers.

I'm not saying their bikes are great, if anything Headway have a bit of a track record of supplying less than than premium quality on anything that is not cells. The bike is likely fairly reasonable but not perfect and I wouldn't be surprised if it had some fairly fundamental (but not necessarily expensive to remedy) faults. If you are a little handy and not too fussy it will likely do the job at a relatively low cost, but you might have a few teething problems

Flecc, From my experience Headway cells are as good or far superior than the majority of the batteries than most of the so called high end e bike manufacturers use. They can do a genuine 5C, so 50A for a 10Ah pack, that's not bad.... Which Cheap Chinese E bike Manufacturers use Headway Cells? From what I've seen Headway cells are popular across the whole spectrum of EVs with people who can see that they offer good value for a cell that performs to at least a mid level or better. From what I've seen most high end e bike manufacturers are still using Li Ion cells which are cheaper per whr and have much reduced life cycle than Lifepo4, but they're lighter, so it looks good on the spec sheet. I'm sorry but I'm not convinced by this whole reliability thing that has been pushed, it BS IMO.

Hi Tim, the rear 500W motor is 4.3kg all in, the front 350W is 3.8kg. The rear axle is an M14 thread with the normal 10mm flats. Attached are the torque curves for the 500W motor. Both plots are for the same motor, but obviously it produces more power at 48V. I know of people using them at 60V too.

Gents and ladies of course I have both the 500W and 350W at 36V Puma (Mac) motors ready to ship. These are a well known geared hub motor, very similar to the BMC motors. The 500W motor is available for both front and rear wheel installation, but the front can only be used with rim brakes. Rear is disk brake compatible and can accept a 7 speed freewheel with 135mm dropout. 350W front is disk brake compatible, as is the 350W rear. These motors are primarily intended for a 26" or 700C sized rim but with some overvolts you could run them in a smaller rim. The 350W motor is a little cheaper, will get back with an exact price soon. Shipping options at present are EMS at 35% discount, standard Air and Sea Freight. Paypal adds additional 6% (sorry that is what it costs me). Shipping is from China and total cost including Paypal commission (wire transfer drops the 6% paypal commission) and shipping (Air Freight) will be just over 240USD or about 180euros at the present exchange rate. Sea Freight is available at a reduced cost. These motors will comfortable run at 48V and quite a few have also ran them at 60V. Below is a some data I collected from the 500W motor. Even though these are described as a 500W motor they actually pull all the current you can throw at them and I have personally seen about 1000W on a 36V pack with 25A controller and about 1800W on a 48V pack with 35A controller: No load RPM with 38.2V supply, 365rpm 36V pack (38V under load), no pedalling, you're looking at almost 40kph, but typically expect about 37kph or so. 48V pack (approximately 50V under load), you're looking at mid to high 40s kph. The 500W motor comes with a no cost option single steel gear, but not all of them are fitted with these so it's first come first served till I can get some more. The steel gear does make the motor a bit more noisy but I would not describe it as a noisy motor either way. They're not as quiet as the new breed of Bafang, but they're not overly loud. I've been using a 500W front motor for over 6 months at both 36V and 48V using the standard nylon gears. The steel gear is only necessary for those who really want to push the limits. I also have some high speed 500W motors. These are 485rpm at 38.6V no load. I ordered a few of these for a dual motor bike which has turned out pretty good so far but they would also work well in a smaller rim. Not recommended for a single motor in a 26" rim, although they could work well with a higher current limit controller, but I haven't personally tried that yet. Attached are a few pics. The polished finish is the 350W motor and the painted finish is the 500W motor. Drop me a PM or send an email to emissions-free_worldwide (at) hotmail.com Thanks Paul