Hoppy33

How much energy did I have in those days!! Unbelievable. And quite a few of those miles were with a mate on the crossbar. That was a tortuous experience all round. SA hubs are hardly a secret though, so I guess they must have been dismissed for some reason. Maybe cost, maybe supply chain and business hurdles?

What’s wrong with 3-speed Sturmey-Archer hub gear? Absolutely reliable, even when thrashed to death, totally abused, with zero maintenance. As a teenager in the late 60s, I had a second-hand boneshaker and rode it hard everyday, everywhere, all weathers, to school and then paper-round six days a week, and up to the rec most evenings to kick a football around with mates. They also had similar bikes - derailleurs were around, but nobody had them. Many thousands of miles. All the sprockets were hooked, chain knackered, but that Sturmey-Archer never failed.

No, I can’t find anything much at all. Maybe I’ve been had. Too much wishful thinking on my behalf. Apologies if that’s set any hares running, but what a damned shame! I’m not too unhappy though. My RadRunner-3 Plus is proving to be an excellent foundation for everything I want (some of that particular to my personal wish list) and I’m reliably informed that with the EggRider I can safely ramp the motor up to 25A/1200w. More than enough for me and a few hills.

I was referring to my RadRunner-Plus previously, with Rad’s regular Bafang hub motor, plus EggRider maxed at 19A. I believe Rad uses the same motor in all markets, just software limited according to local regs. I’m aware of the changes that can be made to motor characteristics with different windings, and that’s one of the things that attracted me to my new-to-me RadRunner-3 Plus (that, and the greatly improved frame). Rad claims to have optimised the motor for low-end torque rather than top speed and they’ve done an excellent job! I have an EggRider sitting here ready to go, but I haven’t fitted it yet because this new motor is way, way more punchy straight out of the box and I’m really enjoying it just the way it is (EU/UK legal). I still have to pedal hard up one local hill but I live in the flatlands of East Anglia so that’s not too often. All I can say is, I hope you’re mistaken and that this new 3-speed Bafang hub motor does indeed have a proper gearbox. I don’t know for sure one way or the other. I kind-of assumed it was a development of their existing 2-speed auto hub, as used by ADO and others, that seems to work pretty well on hills (Electroheads review link below). If I’m right, Bafang may have found the Holy Grail for hub motors; if I’m wrong, well, what a waste of time! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhaj-6e96OE:660

48v at 20A is 960w so yes, of course a hub motor with that kind of power will pull up most hills. That’s exactly what I’ve got and it works okay if you can take a decent run at it and keep the motor spinning. But if you have to stop for any reason, or even just slow to let another bike come down, you’re dead. A gearbox will always win on hills, and if you have a loaded cargo e-bike and need to launch the thing smoothly and safely on any kind of slope, you’ll know all about that. This is where the mainstream market is moving - towards regular consumers with everyday wants and needs, and away from enthusiasts. That’s why I’m so interested to see this new Bafang hub motor with three integral automatic gears - mid-motor lugging power, at a fraction of the cost. That’ll put the cat amongst…! https://www.cyclingelectric.com/news/bafang-motor-three-speed-automatic

Of course Bosch mid-motors are reliable! They’ve been making them long enough, in large quantities, to have ironed out all the wrinkles long ago. And they’re not exactly complex, cutting-edge devices anyway - at least, not compared to your average car engine that is bewilderingly complex and highly stressed running red hot while spinning at 20x the speed of an e-bike motor, but cheap to make and unfailingly reliable for many tens of thousands of miles.

I agree with Bonzo B in post 19 - hub motors are better suited to the new and fast growing mainstream e-bike market. Cheap, efficient, reliable, and now I see Bafang has introduced a hub motor with integral 3-speed automatic gears (fitted to a new ADO model). That’s a game-changer. The next Bosch board meeting should be interesting. With respect to Riese & Muller, it’s relatively easy to make a very good e-bike for £5k, especially when all the key technical components are bought-in from third parties anyway. It’s much harder to do it on a tight budget, but the Chinese are practised experts at just that kind of challenge and IMHO they will continue to squeeze the Euro brands hard in the mainstream. It’s inevitable. When markets go mainstream, cost is king. I’m not sure the old business model, targeting cycling enthusiasts and based around manufacturers, distributors and local retailers all taking a slice, will cut it. PS Why are ebikes so expensive anyway? They’re pretty simple mechanical devices after all! Take a look at this new Honda CB350S motorbike. It’s bluddy good, a proper Honda, made in Japan, with quality components. It’s fairly basic as these things go (just a 350cc single cylinder) but that’s bang on the market right now and it costs £3949 https://www.google.com/search?q=new+honda+350+mcn&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:3d5372ba,vid:rOw6CFcC12o,st:0

The point I make is really that some problems are under our noses and easy to fix with the stroke of a Trumpian Sharpie. If only we had the political will to see it. Has nobody in government joined the dots between our crazy couriers, battery/bike thefts and house fires? It’s as obvious as night follows day. If the price of a warm pizza goes up 50p, I’ll take the hit and maybe delete extra salami.

I have great respect for the courier guys and gals who ride their ebikes in all weathers, at all hours. They have my sympathy, too. They barely earn a crust, just so we can have a warm pizza, but they’re victims of the gig economy that has very serious side-effects for all of ebiking. If e-bike deliveries were to stop right now, we would see an immediate and dramatic reduction to just about everything bad that is happening in ebiking today. Courier riders are the ones either directly or indirectly responsible for: - anti-social and dangerous riding through all our city streets and pedestrian areas - their need for huge batteries is fuelling bike and battery theft - their lack of funds leads to unsafe DIY conversions - their need for rapid charging, unattended over-night at high amperage, is causing fatal fires The crazy thing is, everybody knows this, and multiple laws are being broken all round. We know who and where and why. But seizing and crushing dodgy bikes is not the answer - go to the heart of the problem and crack down on the greedy fast-food empires.

Guys, I’m aware of the law and its nuances.* Not sure why this thread has got side tracked when my only interest is to respond to the OP with support for another mid-motor brand provided it has a throttle option. I’m also uncomfortable about the power and speed of the DJI as presented in the video link, if only because I think it might attract unwanted attention. I’m sure that can be toned down but if there is no throttle option (and nobody has confirmed whether there is or not) then personally I think that’s a big opportunity missed. For me, a throttle is essential. I have two hub-motor e-bikes, both with throttles and plenty of power, and both perfectly legal. I’m very happy with them. *Edit: thanks mainly to this forum, for which I’m grateful

A torque sensor is nothing more than a throttle operated by your leg, and the main problem with that is it’s useless when your feet are on the ground. First and foremost, a throttle is a safety feature - for safe launching and low speed manoeuvring when you have either one foot down, or both. I can see how a torque sensor is perfect for mountain bikers but for everyone else a throttle is either very desirable or essential. Manufacturers ignore that at their peril.

Off topic, but to be fair to Cyrusher they have an interesting range of models with unusual specs - like 20/26in fat tyre e-bikes with step-thru frames, full-suspension and powerful mid-motors plus throttle. Nice showroom, helpful staff, good coffee, and a great location for test rides. They are sold as UK legal though easy to delimit them. I came close to buying two (one for the missus) but had a change of heart over the specs I really wanted.

This is not a quiz! The point I’m making is that mid-motor e-bikes with a throttle are very hard to find. In the UK, I’m only aware of Wisper and Cyrusher as mainstream brands. There may well be others but if so they’re pretty well hidden and can only account for a very small percentage of sales. The throttle-less Bosch dominates. I’m not being shy. Surely it’s obvious what many influential walking/rambling/hiking groups will think of this new DJI trail-shredder. It’s a motorbike.

Does it have a throttle option? AFAIK Bafang is the only mid-motor option with a throttle, which rules out 95% of mid-motor e-bikes for me. I’ve long been concerned about the controlling influence of Bosch’s dominant market share so any competition is good, but on the other hand the DJI’s astonishing power, so enthusiastically received in the video linked above, raises a lot of uncomfortable questions. I wonder if DJI will be offering test rides to the Ramblers Association 100,000 members?

All good stuff, but I have a hunch that a major cause of many (most?) battery problems is simply related to dropping the damn things. It’s so easily done and inevitably causes damage. Perhaps even worse is that the battery may well appear to work okay after taking a tumble. Until it doesn’t. Edit: The other thing about battery safety is negative public perception of fire risk. This is hitting ebike sales directly, bike shops can’t get insurance and employers and landlords are banning them.