Hoppy33

How much energy did I have in those days!! Unbelievable. And quite a few of those miles were with a mate on the crossbar. That was a tortuous experience all round. SA hubs are hardly a secret though, so I guess they must have been dismissed for some reason. Maybe cost, maybe supply chain and business hurdles?

What’s wrong with 3-speed Sturmey-Archer hub gear? Absolutely reliable, even when thrashed to death, totally abused, with zero maintenance. As a teenager in the late 60s, I had a second-hand boneshaker and rode it hard everyday, everywhere, all weathers, to school and then paper-round six days a week, and up to the rec most evenings to kick a football around with mates. They also had similar bikes - derailleurs were around, but nobody had them. Many thousands of miles. All the sprockets were hooked, chain knackered, but that Sturmey-Archer never failed.

No, I can’t find anything much at all. Maybe I’ve been had. Too much wishful thinking on my behalf. Apologies if that’s set any hares running, but what a damned shame! I’m not too unhappy though. My RadRunner-3 Plus is proving to be an excellent foundation for everything I want (some of that particular to my personal wish list) and I’m reliably informed that with the EggRider I can safely ramp the motor up to 25A/1200w. More than enough for me and a few hills.

I was referring to my RadRunner-Plus previously, with Rad’s regular Bafang hub motor, plus EggRider maxed at 19A. I believe Rad uses the same motor in all markets, just software limited according to local regs. I’m aware of the changes that can be made to motor characteristics with different windings, and that’s one of the things that attracted me to my new-to-me RadRunner-3 Plus (that, and the greatly improved frame). Rad claims to have optimised the motor for low-end torque rather than top speed and they’ve done an excellent job! I have an EggRider sitting here ready to go, but I haven’t fitted it yet because this new motor is way, way more punchy straight out of the box and I’m really enjoying it just the way it is (EU/UK legal). I still have to pedal hard up one local hill but I live in the flatlands of East Anglia so that’s not too often. All I can say is, I hope you’re mistaken and that this new 3-speed Bafang hub motor does indeed have a proper gearbox. I don’t know for sure one way or the other. I kind-of assumed it was a development of their existing 2-speed auto hub, as used by ADO and others, that seems to work pretty well on hills (Electroheads review link below). If I’m right, Bafang may have found the Holy Grail for hub motors; if I’m wrong, well, what a waste of time! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhaj-6e96OE:660

48v at 20A is 960w so yes, of course a hub motor with that kind of power will pull up most hills. That’s exactly what I’ve got and it works okay if you can take a decent run at it and keep the motor spinning. But if you have to stop for any reason, or even just slow to let another bike come down, you’re dead. A gearbox will always win on hills, and if you have a loaded cargo e-bike and need to launch the thing smoothly and safely on any kind of slope, you’ll know all about that. This is where the mainstream market is moving - towards regular consumers with everyday wants and needs, and away from enthusiasts. That’s why I’m so interested to see this new Bafang hub motor with three integral automatic gears - mid-motor lugging power, at a fraction of the cost. That’ll put the cat amongst…! https://www.cyclingelectric.com/news/bafang-motor-three-speed-automatic

Of course Bosch mid-motors are reliable! They’ve been making them long enough, in large quantities, to have ironed out all the wrinkles long ago. And they’re not exactly complex, cutting-edge devices anyway - at least, not compared to your average car engine that is bewilderingly complex and highly stressed running red hot while spinning at 20x the speed of an e-bike motor, but cheap to make and unfailingly reliable for many tens of thousands of miles.

I agree with Bonzo B in post 19 - hub motors are better suited to the new and fast growing mainstream e-bike market. Cheap, efficient, reliable, and now I see Bafang has introduced a hub motor with integral 3-speed automatic gears (fitted to a new ADO model). That’s a game-changer. The next Bosch board meeting should be interesting. With respect to Riese & Muller, it’s relatively easy to make a very good e-bike for £5k, especially when all the key technical components are bought-in from third parties anyway. It’s much harder to do it on a tight budget, but the Chinese are practised experts at just that kind of challenge and IMHO they will continue to squeeze the Euro brands hard in the mainstream. It’s inevitable. When markets go mainstream, cost is king. I’m not sure the old business model, targeting cycling enthusiasts and based around manufacturers, distributors and local retailers all taking a slice, will cut it. PS Why are ebikes so expensive anyway? They’re pretty simple mechanical devices after all! Take a look at this new Honda CB350S motorbike. It’s bluddy good, a proper Honda, made in Japan, with quality components. It’s fairly basic as these things go (just a 350cc single cylinder) but that’s bang on the market right now and it costs £3949 https://www.google.com/search?q=new+honda+350+mcn&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:3d5372ba,vid:rOw6CFcC12o,st:0

The point I make is really that some problems are under our noses and easy to fix with the stroke of a Trumpian Sharpie. If only we had the political will to see it. Has nobody in government joined the dots between our crazy couriers, battery/bike thefts and house fires? It’s as obvious as night follows day. If the price of a warm pizza goes up 50p, I’ll take the hit and maybe delete extra salami.

I have great respect for the courier guys and gals who ride their ebikes in all weathers, at all hours. They have my sympathy, too. They barely earn a crust, just so we can have a warm pizza, but they’re victims of the gig economy that has very serious side-effects for all of ebiking. If e-bike deliveries were to stop right now, we would see an immediate and dramatic reduction to just about everything bad that is happening in ebiking today. Courier riders are the ones either directly or indirectly responsible for: - anti-social and dangerous riding through all our city streets and pedestrian areas - their need for huge batteries is fuelling bike and battery theft - their lack of funds leads to unsafe DIY conversions - their need for rapid charging, unattended over-night at high amperage, is causing fatal fires The crazy thing is, everybody knows this, and multiple laws are being broken all round. We know who and where and why. But seizing and crushing dodgy bikes is not the answer - go to the heart of the problem and crack down on the greedy fast-food empires.

Guys, I’m aware of the law and its nuances.* Not sure why this thread has got side tracked when my only interest is to respond to the OP with support for another mid-motor brand provided it has a throttle option. I’m also uncomfortable about the power and speed of the DJI as presented in the video link, if only because I think it might attract unwanted attention. I’m sure that can be toned down but if there is no throttle option (and nobody has confirmed whether there is or not) then personally I think that’s a big opportunity missed. For me, a throttle is essential. I have two hub-motor e-bikes, both with throttles and plenty of power, and both perfectly legal. I’m very happy with them. *Edit: thanks mainly to this forum, for which I’m grateful

A torque sensor is nothing more than a throttle operated by your leg, and the main problem with that is it’s useless when your feet are on the ground. First and foremost, a throttle is a safety feature - for safe launching and low speed manoeuvring when you have either one foot down, or both. I can see how a torque sensor is perfect for mountain bikers but for everyone else a throttle is either very desirable or essential. Manufacturers ignore that at their peril.

Off topic, but to be fair to Cyrusher they have an interesting range of models with unusual specs - like 20/26in fat tyre e-bikes with step-thru frames, full-suspension and powerful mid-motors plus throttle. Nice showroom, helpful staff, good coffee, and a great location for test rides. They are sold as UK legal though easy to delimit them. I came close to buying two (one for the missus) but had a change of heart over the specs I really wanted.

This is not a quiz! The point I’m making is that mid-motor e-bikes with a throttle are very hard to find. In the UK, I’m only aware of Wisper and Cyrusher as mainstream brands. There may well be others but if so they’re pretty well hidden and can only account for a very small percentage of sales. The throttle-less Bosch dominates. I’m not being shy. Surely it’s obvious what many influential walking/rambling/hiking groups will think of this new DJI trail-shredder. It’s a motorbike.

Does it have a throttle option? AFAIK Bafang is the only mid-motor option with a throttle, which rules out 95% of mid-motor e-bikes for me. I’ve long been concerned about the controlling influence of Bosch’s dominant market share so any competition is good, but on the other hand the DJI’s astonishing power, so enthusiastically received in the video linked above, raises a lot of uncomfortable questions. I wonder if DJI will be offering test rides to the Ramblers Association 100,000 members?

All good stuff, but I have a hunch that a major cause of many (most?) battery problems is simply related to dropping the damn things. It’s so easily done and inevitably causes damage. Perhaps even worse is that the battery may well appear to work okay after taking a tumble. Until it doesn’t. Edit: The other thing about battery safety is negative public perception of fire risk. This is hitting ebike sales directly, bike shops can’t get insurance and employers and landlords are banning them.

That’s great news! Why are you not shouting this from the rooftops? But what about the major players - Bosch, Giant, Specialized, Gazelle etc? As far as I can establish, none of the mainstream brands has adopted potting battery cells, with the notable exception of Rad Power Bikes.

For ebikes? Not like these Rad SafeShield batteries https://www.radpowerbikes.com/collections/replacement-parts/products/safe-shield-advanced-external-battery?variant=40295894417504

Hypothesis: delivery riders are a problem, and so are battery fires. Maybe we could kill two birds with one stone simply by fitting all batteries with ‘potted cells’. Potted cells are cheap and easy to manufacture and they’re commonly used in many automative applications but so far, I believe only Rad Power Bikes have introduced them for ebikes (marketed as SafeShield). Potted cells are encased in a silicon-based* material which makes them highly resistant to shock and physical damage. They also reduce the likelihood of fire, and help to contain fire if the worst should happen. Plus, there is another beneficial side effect - potted cells are very difficult to remove, maybe even impossible without damage. Battery theft is on the rise, largely because they’re easy to steal, and they can be readily sold to backstreet operators who pull them apart, extract the valuable cells and cobble multiple stolen batteries together into those huge and dangerous things used by delivery riders. *Edit: correction - not potted in silicon but a fire-retardant resin

I kind of agree and maybe we should cut Adrian Chiles a bit of slack. He is definitely on our side and I for one am grateful that he didn’t mention battery fires! So let’s be honest, we definitely have a problem and the programme accurately reflected the increasingly negative public perception of ebikes. For whatever reason, everyone is confused about the legal definitions. Eg, plenty of folks on here for a start and the police are seemingly in the same boat as they are either reluctant or unable to enforce existing laws. Ditto e-scooters. And ask any bike shop what the real regulations are and there’s a good chance they’ll get it wrong too. I’ve been told multiple times that ‘throttles are illegal’ full stop - strangely enough that always comes from sales people stocking only expensive mid-motor ebikes that do not have throttles... But there is one major and glaringly obvious factor at play here - the reckless delivery riders who tear up and down our high streets and race along footpaths and cycleways. They are a universal menace. We know who they are and where they work. It’s the ugly side of the gig economy. Fix that and a big part of the problem will go away.

That’s a very handy summary, confirmed here by those who know. Thanks! Just for clarity, I also believe that it’s perfectly legal to have a throttle delivering max power above 4mph, provided the pedals are turning. After all, in this respect a throttle is no different to using the PAS buttons, or pushing harder on a torque sensor for that matter. I hope that’s true! In which case, my own e-bike therefore complies with UK law. It’s a RadRunner-Plus with hub-motor, EU/UK spec with a 250w compliance sticker from the manufacturer. I have also fitted an EggRider that can be configured in any number of either legal or illegal ways, including what is called ‘Rad mode’ which mimics the rather well-considered power characteristics of the standard Rad bike, including throttle cut-off at 4mph but with full throttle available above that speed while the pedals are turning. I have power capped at 19A (912w) so I am not short of hill-climbing torque but speed is also limited to the legal max of 15.5mph. That’s more than enough for the footpaths and cycleways I share with other bikes, pedestrians and prams and dogs. In practice, this is a very good set-up for me, and I suspect many others. I have all the power and speed I need, plus a throttle that is, in effect, pretty much available full-time. It is very easy to use the throttle for a safe and elegant launch (and it’s perfect for slow-speed manoeuvring) and then to be underway and on the pedals before the 4mph cut-off. BTW, it is not possible to make any changes to the EggRider ‘on the fly’ (in order to comply with the law if you’re stopped). That can only be done by hooking up to the BlueTooth app and diving in to the menus.

The proposal for a full-time full-power throttle option (up 15.5mph) is the best aspect of all this. To suggest that throttles are unnecessary is to ignore the wants and needs of perhaps the biggest and fastest-growing sector of the whole cycling market - newcomers and returnees - who are so badly needed. To these people, throttles are fundamental to safety and are the gateway to a confident and enjoyable cycling future (I do not say that lightly). Who cares if you have to pedal or not? At least you're out and about on a bike. They are not 'enthusiasts' and I am disappointed by the prejudice often shown towards them, not to mention the industry's unfounded fear that somehow throttles are a short road to legislative oblivion. This is nonsense - the DfT's genuine intention is to encourage active mobility and this has been clearly demonstrated by multiple initiatives since the Boris Bike some 14 years ago. It's happening on a global scale and ebikes are central to it. Meanwhile, all my local bike shops are full of glittering sports and performance bikes, many of them electric but way above most budgets. Do they have a throttle? "No sir, throttles are illegal." What?! Talk about cutting your own throat. There is strong consumer demand for more powerful ebikes, with throttles. And escooters too. Heck, they're already here, they're not going away and need to be legally integrated into the new active transport landscape. It's a frustratingly complex legislative problem, and it demands bold investment in cycling infrastructure too, but we've got to start somewhere. Doing nothing is not an option.

It's not as dangerous as it looks and as a lad I might have pulled off a few similar moves myself. But it's not representative either - they're in central London (Oxford Street) where the traffic never moves faster than a walking pace. The weather is good, but their safety also depends to a large extent on other traffic/pedestrians moving out of the way. That doesn't happen on suburban roads where the traffic is pushing 30mph (maybe 40) and there are mums with prams, school kids, dog walkers and 101 other hazards to put them, and others, in hospital. Question: they're breaking plenty of laws there. How can they be enforced?

I stand corrected, and thanks for your reply David. I was under the impression that pretty much all ebikes had motor cut-out switches on the brakes. I have two ebikes (Rad and ADO) and they both have brake cut-outs so I kind of assumed... I guess the reasoning for leaving them off is simply that, if you are squeezing the brake lever to activate the switch to cut the motor, then the brake is going to stop the bike pretty sharpish anyway! Point taken

Brake cut-off switches are a very useful safety feature, bordering on essential I would say. Eg from personal experience - when your 4-yr-old grandson in front seat forgets he's not supposed to touch anything while you dismount; when I'm leaning forward to open a gate in a bulky jacket that pushes the throttle; also handy when wanting to change down at a junction but don't want to pedal and activate power, a touch on the brake lever acts like a clutch. I've also seen someone with long grass inadvertently caught up around the freewheel, then pushing the bike across a busy zebra crossing - of course the pedals then turned and the bike careered off and he fell flat on the deck, potentially a very nasty situation with kids and prams around. I'd guess that most of us have accidentally activated power at some time or other, probably when slow manoeuvering with a lot of lock, or when getting on and off. I have a good habit of always covering the brake in situations like that - learned the hard way from motorcycling days. Disappointed to learn that Wisper eBikes don't include brake cut-offs. It's unusual and surprisingly off-brand! I'd even go as far as to say that a negligence lawsuit may be only a matter of time.

If we don't believe that the DfT is honest in wanting to promote all the benefits of active mobility, and that it sees ebikes as central to that aim, then this debate cannot move forward positively. Personally, I believe the DfT's motives are good and that these proposed new measures are a step in the right direction - to everyone's benefit. I'm dismayed by some sections of the bike industry who seem to think that it's a short road to a clamp-down and further restrictive legislation that would kill the golden goose of ebikes classified the same as pedal bikes. And while they pay lip-service to concerns over safety and health and the environment, actually what they care most about is selling more bikes. If ebikes become more popular, that should push them up the transport agenda and maybe we'll get more bike lanes and cycle paths. Proper cycling infrastructure is what we need first and most. Chicken and egg.