Graeme

Or was it the Bosch?? I can't remember ...(hehehehe)

I agree they do look interesting, and the company are bringing 4 new models to the market soon.products Which seems to indicate that they have made a significant investment, but time will tell of course. It would be interesting to know if they are being manufactured primarily for the European market or/and if they are popular in the home Chinese market.

Now you are just teasing us all! Do I wait for this exciting development to come to market, or do I just go ahead and buy eddieo's second hand Bosch?

eddieo I think your Bosch is complete rubbish! Trash, less useful than an ash tray on a motor bike! Overpriced, overhyped and over here. But, if you're ever thinking of selling it give me a shout! I might be interested... ;-)

Now Scottyf, that really is very perceptive, I agree with your fist comment, couldn't possibly comment on the second.

Wow! another mildly insulting post calling for tolerance! Interesting.. :-)

I always look out for your posts flecc, and read them with interest and have learned a great deal from you. I didn't realise you were a retailer and certainly did not and would not describe your posts as Tumbleweed. I was referring to the lack of posts from retailers. I would just have liked their in put on why they favour hub over that's all. The Tonaro product has made a comeback for a reason, as you have pointed out, there is a market for them. Which simply means there is a market for reasonably priced Crank Drive Bikes that do a decent job. Yes take away the throttle and I'd not want one, throttles are very helpful to some people and help make the Tonaro what it is.

eddieo Then we will never agree! that's perfectly fine, no problemo bud, we can agree to disagree that's what sharing on this forum is about isn't it? Sharing our views and experiences in a respectful manner...and respecting other peoples views, unless they are technically or factually wrong. To describe someone 'thoughts' on a product as 'pathetic' is fairly meaningless and less than respectful and unhelpful, yet not surprising. I don't see anyone pretending that the Tonaro is something special, its a bike that a growing number of people seem to be very happy with, as simple as that. I suspect that the people who suppose that their brand of bike is 'special' and superior are not Tonaro owners, (because they are not! eddieo isn't that right ;-) ). I just sense relaxed enjoyment from many Tonaro owners. I have to respectfully disagree with you one one point, you don't always get what that you pay for, see the story of the The Emperors New Clothes for a fine example of a silly man thinking he has something really special when in fact it was quite literally 'nothing' special at all. :-)

lemmy and Mike, so glad you've found bikes that are meeting your needs are are perfect for your individual circumstances. Just to say, no I'm not Phil from Powerpedals in disguise! :-) I'm just interested in getting value for money and a fair deal on a Crank Drive that's it. The More choice the better, the more competition the better. As far as this thread is concerned, it's been virtual tumbleweed time re: suppliers apart from Tim from 50 cycles who ventured forth with an honest, personal and negative evaluation of a Tonaro, which seems to me from his description had some kind of fault, unsure of which model. Kudos also entered the discussion a little...Everyone else...? Tumbleweed! Is this s sign that they are quaking in their cycle shoes?! :-) The Tonaro's are not to everyone's liking but neither is the Wisper or the Stokemonkey! (Please don't bash me for speaking of the Wisper and the Stokemonkey in the same breath! I know some of you may find that laughable or worse :-) ) Some suggest that the Tonaro's are becoming so popular simply because of their relatively cheap price compared to other Crank Drive makes...well, yes that's my point, there IS a market for Crank Drive bikes at a reasonable price AND there is more choice coming in our way from Tonaro and Powerpedals. products Which is I suggest good news. Some suggest its old technology, which it is 1999 I believe, but it works, so why try to reinvent the wheel? :-)

So, are we to assume that the manufacturers and retailers are barely scrapping a crust from their buisiness's?

We'll pass the hat round for you Tim :-)

indalo Like you I would be surprised if a 'formal' cartel or monopoly exists, what I suspect is a very high level of profitability with neither Panasonic or Bosch having any interest whatsoever in a price war! :-) I assume they know their market very well and can pitch their prices at a point that is affordable for those in advanced years (on the whole, no offence to anyone :-) ) and with a fair level of disposable income. When that harvest has been well and truly reaped then the plebs will be the next field to target... End of Wild Speculation. On the battery side of things, yes I am shocked at the prices of some batteries and it has ruled some good hub models out for me. Again I can only point to Tonaro replacement batteries at about £250. I really am sounding like a Tonaro 'plant' now so I'll stop. All I want is a fair product at a fair price, including batteries and backup, I don't feel I get that from Panasonic or Bosch. I await to see from reviews and hopefully a personal trial of the Tonaro Esprit when it becomes available. It seems to me that the E-Bike industry has come a long way, but in some ways still seems to be in the very formative stages.

There a very limited options for those wishing to purchase a Crank Drive at a reasonable price. I know the price of a bike is relative etc. but I do wonder what the retail mark up is on these Panasonic and Bosch system bikes? It's not that I can't pay it's just that I'm not prepared to, they are I suspect well overpriced. You pay for what you get they say, I say 'they' control the market and have a monopoly, and I refuse to buy into it. The industry needs more choice and pricing options and more competition. The total reliance on Hub motors by retailers, even by those new to the market could prove to be very short sighted and in the long run detrimental to the industry as a whole. The Tonaro (I've learnt to speile it poper nuw) Esprit, (and other Tonaro models) seems like a welcome addition to this segment of the market. I for one will be watching with interest for reviews of the Tonaro Esprit from unbiased, no axe to grind, genuine customers/owners. As always thanks to all the Bulldogs Poodles Rottweilers Greyhounds and Spaniels who contributed to this thread. :-)

Tim Perhaps you should have gone for the Torano, instead of Haibike window dressing... ;-)

This is not Torano as such but it is a link to a site where you can find out more info. Home Page of Powerpedals electric bicycles

Thanks for clearing that up, if it is a misunderstanding its based on the 50 Cycles description of the Connect S.

Give me some options to consider Eddie.

Hi Tim Thanks for your in put. Which Torano did you try? Why don't you publish the weight of each bike on your website, that would be helpful? The Torano Esprit is 25kg with battery, and less than half the price of the Kalkhoff Connect S, the ONLY Kalkhoff with a throttle. I would of course consider a Kalkhoff with a throttle, but at £2495 its way beyond what I'm prepared to pay for an E-Bike. My point remains there is so little choice in Crank driven bikes. We need more competition! Sounds to me like you're saying Kalkhoff are the LardyDa of the bike world, while the Torano's are just Lardy. ;-) Replacement battery prices are a factor to take into consideration for me too.

tillson. Totally agree with you agreeing with me. ;-) Although I did have to LOL at your description of the manufacturing process of Hub Bikes... :-)

Jerry My post is somewhat tongue in cheek, and I don't want to start yet another crank v hub debate, I, along with many others I suspect, would like to see more choice of Crank driven bikes like the Torano's. We all have personal choices in these matters but it does seem that the Crank choice is very limited. After months of weighing up the options I have come to the conclusion for me that a Crank drive is best. The choice I have is Raleigh/Kalkhoff Gepida and Torano. If I want one with throttle and hub gears its a Kalkhoff at about £2400 or the Torano Esprit (not yet available) at about £1200. That's it. It seems that the E-Bike industry is more manufacturer/supplier driven than market driven, and it seems to me there is a lot more room for Cranks! ;-)

When will all the suppliers and manufacturers 'lurking' about this wonderful forum realise that Crank operated bikes are the future of the business, and when will they start to offer them? I really like the look of the Torano Esprit (with Hub GEARS and with throttle ) and it is reasonably priced , as opposed to Kalkhoff etc.. When will consumers get more choice from different suppliers on the Cranky side of E-Bike life? Suppliers are missing a potentially huge market if they ignore the Crank, and potential customers are also missing out, and ultimately the industry is missing out, in my humble, uniformed opinion... Ignore the Crank at your peril!

Not even BUPA, though I do have an original Tufty Club Badge! but I must confess, I was never a member... ;-)

25kg for this baby looks pretty decent to me. Coming Soon

As a potential E-bike buyer, I have looked at Wisper and Juicy as my two choices for a Hub Motor bike, just personal preference with no expert knowledge, just looked, read reviews, gleaned from this very helpful site, etc. However I have found the main decision for me to make was Hub Motor or Crank. The Torano Esprit (Crank, Hub Gears) looks to me like a good buy. Juicy looks to me like the best £ for £ purchase on the hub side, Wispers more expensive but 'better' quality parts. I'd say that Juicy is the better value per £ though. But I am veering toward a Crank... ;-) Thus the suggestion to look at the Torano's. No I'm not on commission, I'm not a member of BEPA BUBA BABA BOOBA BOOBOO OR BEBA...BYEBYE

Coming Soon The Torano Esprit with Hub gears and throttle. The only weak link for me would be the V Brakes. I believe the price is about £1300 delivered.