Jimmy,

 

After your poor experience I'm surprised you'd consider buying from Wisper again! You are right that they are not off-road bikes. To be honest I don't think any electric bikes are.

 

The Pro-Connect is quite a different bike from the Wisper - being a speed-limited pedelec while the Wisper is really just throttle control but with possibility of higher speed. Also it may be more expensive; in Germany, it seems to be listed at a couple of hundred Euros more than the Agutta. I haven't seen any UK pricing yet.

 

Frank

Jimmy,

As Frank has said the Wisper is a different concept from the Pro-Connect. The Wisper Works 905se is an improvement over the 905e, and it would be fairer to compare it with its nearest equivalent, the Ezee Torq Trekking.

50cycles are currently taking orders for the Pro-Connect and you can reserve one with a £200 refundable deposit, but they give no idea of what the price will be.

 

John

Jimmy,

 

After your poor experience I'm surprised you'd consider buying from Wisper again! You are right that they are not off-road bikes. To be honest I don't think any electric bikes are.

 

Frank

 

Well Frank, I think it's because I like the LOOK of the Wisper bike. I do like the lines of it and prefer it to the serious road-type bikes. I read here that the 905se is supposedly vastly improved compared to the 905e (there certainly was a lot of room for improvement), so that's why I thought about buying one. A lot of the problems I had do seem to have been addressed. The thing is though... last April I paid £620 for my 905se brand-new. The RRP was about £800 at the time. Now, less than a year later, the 905se retails at £1200.... double last year's price on a 905e. I just don't think it's worth it, so I'm going to wait until the Kalkhoff Pro-Connect comes out. It looks more road bike but it looks elegant with it too, so I reckon I'd rather pay more for a bike that's worth it....

Bear in mind that a Panasonic powered bike performs in a radically different way though, so a test ride on one is a good idea if you've only used twistgrip controlled hub motors previously.

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Hi Flecc. The Wisper is not just throttle controlled though. It's a pedelec with magnetic pedal sensor. It has an overide switch that allows the throttle to be used for 'off-road use' (which then makes the spokes all loosen off and the mudguard snap off.....). I actually prefer the pedal assist as opposed to throttle. With a throttle only bike, I find I am constantly thinking about how much twist I'm giving and it spoils the ride for me. I'd prefer to be automatically assisted a bit when pedalling. I did find that my Wisper 905e did 26 miles regularly with power left for a few miles more used in this way, without the throttle. I was pleased with the range aspect of things but suspect that, in a really hilly area, it would be a lot less (I live in flat Lincolnshire)

I realise it's pedelec as well, like most of them, but the Panasonic unit is still very different, you could be surprised how much so. There's less sensation of added power, the whole thing more subtle and refined.

 

I like that, and most do, but I think it best to warn after hub motor use, since some find the lack of "kick in the pants" power delivery disconcerting.

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I find I am constantly thinking about how much twist I'm giving and it spoils the ride for me.

 

Interesting ....

I have no such worries!

I whack the throttle open on departure, and close it 30mins later on arrival

I leave the controller to sort out what to apply and when, and use the brake switch to cut out the drive at the 2 junctions on my way in, and 3 on the way home.

 

So, I'm curious, If the bike has the range for your journey (assuming it is a commute) why would you not just use the maximum assistance throughout?

 

Rab

some of us want a bit of exercise from our bikes,i prefer pedelec only bikes (no throttle without pedalling), as it stops the temptation for me to be lazy,my latest bike a giant revive,with panasonic motor will allow me to ride without assistance with very little drag from the motor,good for extra long trips.

I realise it's pedelec as well, like most of them, but the Panasonic unit is still very different, you could be surprised how much so. There's less sensation of added power, the whole thing more subtle and refined.

 

Is there any sensation of 'fighting' the motor if the battery is flat? ie if I were to ride the bike until the battery is flat and need to get home under pedal power only, would I be fighting a lot of drag on the Panasonic motor, do you know?

Interesting ....

I have no such worries!

I whack the throttle open on departure, and close it 30mins later on arrival

I leave the controller to sort out what to apply and when, and use the brake switch to cut out the drive at the 2 junctions on my way in, and 3 on the way home.

 

So, I'm curious, If the bike has the range for your journey (assuming it is a commute) why would you not just use the maximum assistance throughout?

 

Rab

 

 

I do want to get some exercise by pedalling and I don;t use my bike to commute a fixed distance... more a kind of recreational meandering about. So, I really want as much range as possible with me pedalling and being assisted to some degree without having to be preoccupied with how much throttle (and therefore battery power) I'm using. I did have a throttle only bike and found that it was too easy to NOT pedal at all and then not get as far as I wanted in range. So, I then tried to economise on the use of the throttle so I could get the extra range... which meant I spent more time thinking of the throttle than enjoying the ride......

 

Is there any sensation of 'fighting' the motor if the battery is flat? ie if I were to ride the bike until the battery is flat and need to get home under pedal power only, would I be fighting a lot of drag on the Panasonic motor, do you know?

 

 

Less drag than any other electric bike ever made, almost none, and that's the main reason for the Panasonic system's popularity, the bike riding just like an ordinary bike.

 

That's why they alone have an off switch on the handlebar, which is usable at any time. I always rode my lafree switched off until the first hill, and as the Kalkhoff test showed, I did the same during that.

 

As A to B magazine said of the Lafree, with the battery out, it is an ordinary bike.

 

Here's two relevant passages from my review:

 

"Early in the day I'd ridden the Kent Gate Way cyclepath again, with still air through being well protected from the wind that was experienced high on the Downs later, some of this a minutely negative incline of between 0.9 and 1.2%, and found the bike rolling so freely that I stopped pedalling, the bike then rolling along at 17 mph for well over half a mile before the incline was lost. That's the best free rolling I've ever known over the years round here."

 

"With those more average route conditions, I never used high power mode and took advantage of the bike's low roll resistance by riding without power when it was easy. The longest such section without power was 3.6 miles in urban conditions, often slowing right down for junctions and roundabouts, and peaking at over 18 mph at times, the average over that stretch being 12.1 mph. In a rural area without so many intersections that would easily have been at least 13.5 mph average unpowered. For one brief period over half a mile I tried Eco mode, but otherwise the whole ride was on standard mode or switched off."

Edited December 29, 200718 yr by flecc

"Early in the day I'd ridden the Kent Gate Way cyclepath again, with still air through being well protected from the wind that was experienced high on the Downs later, some of this a minutely negative incline of between 0.9 and 1.2%, and found the bike rolling so freely that I stopped pedalling, the bike then rolling along at 17 mph for well over half a mile before the incline was lost. That's the best free rolling I've ever known over the years round here."

 

Poetry!

 

Reading this it is not easy for me to resist buying one of these bikes...

That sounds good. Is the motor on the Pro-Connect going to be the same as the Agattu that you tested, then?

Yes, it's the same. The system has remained basically the same over the years since it was so good to start with.

 

These new units have had the casings redesigned to save weight, more simple cowlings to aid ease of access, and on some, the high power option. There were changes in the circuitry to increase the electronics reliability.

 

As for drag, the only motor unit parts that turn are the sprocket on the chain with it's shaft and the first two gears. Since the bearings are precision ballraces, not the usual bike stuff, and those two gears are very high quality helicals, they have virtually no effect on free running.

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New 950SE about £891.39 - a good deal?

 

On ebay from Germany, with delivery cost £70.63. Is that a good deal - £ 300 less?

There's already been a thread about these Jonathan. They are German specification without throttle but that's supplied with them together with fitting details. At least one member did buy one, so maybe they can link you to that thread or details.

 

It is a genuine deal from Wisper of Germany, so ok if you're happy with doing some alterations.

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In fact it is this thread! See the first page.

 

I bought one of these and am pretty happy with it. Transaction went smoothly and the sellers answered my questions ok. The bike when set up has throttle and can be de-restricted.

 

One piece of advice - I paid the buy-it-now price but others put in lower offers which were accepted...

 

Frank

 

In fact it is this thread! See the first page.

 

Frank

 

No wonder I couldn't find it, hiding it like that.

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I e-mailed Dominic, the German seller, when I saw them for sale on eBay. Unfortunately, he doesn't accept credit cards (which would give purchase protection) and his Paypal guarantee limit is only £150. I didn't feel confident about wiring or Paypaling that amount of cash. I'd say he's a genuine seller though. One eBay user in the UK (going by the name of Aldby on this forum, I believe??) bought five of them at about 1000 Euros and then listed them for sale on eBay at a mark-up of around 20%. I e-mailed David Miall of Wisper UK and, although he wanted to sell me a UK Wisper at £1200, he then said that he would not get involved in any warranty work whatsoever on any Wisper bike that came from the German seller. Dominic then said that Wisper UK are legally obliged to carry out warranty work as required, even if the machine came from Germany (given that they are all produced in China by Wisper UK, I'd say that Dominic is correct here). So, given what happened to my 905e over only 6 months with bits dropping off it etc, I didn't want to buy one from Germany and then find zero support from the manufacturer here in the UK. I mean, should it really matter where the bike came from if it's a new Wisper under warranty??

 

In the end, I couldn't be bothered with all the apparent skulduggery, implications of being left stuck in the event of warranty work etc over the German Wispers (which according to Wisper UK shouldn't ever be available here.........er why?). I ordered a diamond frame Kalkhoff Agattu today instead.

 

(which according to Wisper UK shouldn't ever be available here.........er why?).

 

It's because they are German specification , made expressly for their market, hence the lack of throttle for example. There are other differences too. The manufacturer can legitimately direct where sales are made anyway. An example is the German Raleigh bike like the Kalkhoff, which can't be sold here because parent company Raleigh UK have their own different e-bike plans.

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Understood re distribution. What about the warranty aspect of things though? If a German Wisper bike needs warranty work, is it reasonable for Wisper UK to insist that it would need to be returned to Germany, even though it's the same manufacturer? It certainly put me off buying one of the German 905se's and, to be honest, it influenced me re buying a British 905se too because I thought the refusal to do warranty work was related to the price discrepancy...

It depends how the manufacturer does his marketing to his national companies. If the deal is that they are liable for warranty matters, it can be reasonable for the other national companies to refuse cross import claims. I've known other cases of this in other business areas.

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Edited January 5, 200818 yr by flecc

I understand (in part from comments earlier in this thread) that EU single market law means that Wisper would, in fact, have to honour warranties regardless of whether the bike was purchased in the UK or Germany. I suspect David isn't aware of the law and needs to be informed of it. But I agree, the making of these statements does not inspire confidence on the part of the consumer.

 

The Raleigh situation is different in that Raleigh UK could sell the German bike here, but presumably have chosen not to for the time being, having made some kind of agreement with Powabyke. For what it's worth I did read a quote somewhere from someone in Raleigh UK saying that they saw the Powabyke deal as a good way for them to get to understand the market while formulating longer term plans. You could say that this could be applied to any joint venture, and you would be right!

 

Frank

 

I understand (in part from comments earlier in this thread) that EU single market law means that Wisper would, in fact, have to honour warranties regardless of whether the bike was purchased in the UK or Germany. I suspect David isn't aware of the law and needs to be informed of it.

Frank

 

I'm not so confident that this necessarily applies. If Wisper gmbh is a wholly different company able to use the Wisper name by default or permission, it wouldn't apply for example, since they would have the status of importer/retailer buying from the Chinese manufacturer. The argument that return to the manufacturer applies might not be valid, since the manufacturer is Wisper in China which may have been set up as a different company from the UK marketing company.

 

Even if that wasn't the case, it's possible repair could be refused in the UK on the basis that the bikes are to a different and German specification which the UK company isn't equipped to deal with. In this connection the safety card could be played, that the brake setup is different and an inadvertent incorrect repair would leave liability for a subsequent accident with the UK company. I couldn't see a court overruling that lightly.

 

In other words, it's a can of worms, and as ever, I tend to stick with what happens in practice, and Wisper is not unusual in what they say as I indicated before. While I don't suspect Wisper of any intent of poor service, legally pursuing matters like this with any company can lead to the product being out of commission for many months and even well over a year due to divers delays, and with no guarantee of winning in the end.

 

Unless the other European outlet is just a branch of the UK company, rather than a separate company, I see buying elsewhere as having a risk if the status isn't clarified first.

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I think it is pretty clear cut. The directive was introduced just to deal with situations of this type. Wisper couldn't argue it was a materially different spec from the products sold in the UK because, as David explained in this forum, the product they sent to the UK was half of their first container load from Germany! Moreover, the UK bikes are 250W - ie European, not UK standard.

 

I've emailed the Wisper guys to point it out to them. I can't imagine they'd want to damage their brand from being seen to be unreasonable.

 

The legal process could actually be very straightforward. If the manufacturer refused to honour the warranty, the customer could have the bike repaired and file a claim with the small claims court for the amount (plus costs). The company could fight it or pay. Given the law being so clear cut, I feel any solicitor would advise them to do the latter.

 

Frank