Yes, but I think the point is really that the German bikes are Wisper bikes, made in a factory in China which was bought by Wisper from the UK. They know that and we know that. Dominic in Germany is offloading them at less than the UK price (even then, I think they're expensive for what they are) and Wisper UK doesn't like it because they're trying to sell them at £1200 here in the UK. So they put stumbling blocks in the way, say they won't do warranty work and generally try to force people to pay out £300 more for what is 99.9% the same thing. Any reference to corporate structures and whether Wisper UK is really the same or not as Wisper anywhere else strikes me as evasive. It struck me as unhelpful, motivated from sour grapes and, to be honest, a not too encouraging indication of what they might like when it comes to getting a new battery, or warranty work, or spares.

 

So I bought a bike from another manufacturer entirely and paid £1195 approx for a bike which I strongly suspect will be superior to the Wisper anyway, whilst costing less than the UK Wisper price. So, in my own particular case, Wisper UK's unhelpful attitude to their own product, emanating from another EU country in the same legal trade bloc which they themselves sent there, simply made me buy someone else's product. Wisper Germany haven't sold me a Wisper and neither have Wisper UK. So, neither of them sell a new bike and neither benefit in the future from sales of spares, batteries or whatever and they lose a customer, probably forever. And that's someone who already bought one of their bikes.

Edited January 5, 200818 yr by jimmyengland1000

 

The legal process could actually be very straightforward.

Frank

 

Now there's an optimist!

.

I reckon any process which involves the legal system should be avoided at all costs. One can win a case, be awarded damages and receive absolutely nothing. No, I wouldn't be consulting a solicitor in the case of an electric bike not being fixed, annoying as it would be. I would (and have) avoided the whole scenario by not getting onvolved with them again.

I agree that legal cases are always far better avoided.

 

However it's a popular misconception that it is hard for a consumer in the UK to take legal action against a company. It's actually easy and quick. There's a special court track just for this (the Small Claims Court). You don't need a solicitor, you just fill in a short form, and need to make a small payment (which will be paid by the other party if you win) to show you are serious.

 

A reputable company which receives a claim against them would probably consult a solicitor, and take their advice. As you say, Jimmy, a disreputable one could decline to pay and do a disappearing act.

 

Frank

I'm mindful of the small claims court Frank, the last such warranty case I'm aware of not reaching potential resolution until a year after the original issue arose with the retailer.

 

The customer had a partial win, but the company, one of Britain's largest retailers, ignored the ruling, in effect challenging the customer to restart the process. He gave up.

 

Sorry Frank, but that's the sort of real world situation I'm familiar with and post about, and it's not uncommon.

 

In this case, the customer had adopted a somewhat aggressive posture at the outset, and seized every opportunity to abuse the company publicly, also a very common event, and doubtless that motivated the company's uncompromising stance and willingness to challenge the outcome.

.

It's always better to use law as last rather than first resort and try to sort things out through in person.

 

However if a company does not pay up having lost at court, the next step is to send in the bailiffs. That can be done with a large company with a public presence. Where it doesn't work of course is with a fly-by-night operation, as Jimmy describes, as the bailiffs have nowhere to call on!

 

I'm sorry to keep banging on about this, and would not want to advocate people rushing to law, but I think it is wrong to perpetuate the impression that consumers can't win, because, if they are in the right, they can!

I don't disagree Frank, customers certainly can win, but the personal cost can be too high for it to be worthwhile.

 

To the customer it's often personal, they get hurt, upset, angry and get wearied by the ongoing process. To the amorphous entity that a company is, it can be just another in tray item, and that's why companies so often win when they are in the wrong, the customer having jumped through so many hoops that they just give up.

 

It's always best for a customer to be relaxed and treat any problem from the outset as merely an event, applying good humour and patience and showing a willingness to co-operate with a supplier to resolve the problem. Sadly, in my experience that hardly ever happens and the postings in this forum often show only too clearly the aggressive stance adopted the moment a problem occurs. The more consumer rights are promoted and publicised everywhere, the more this has happened, and it's doing more harm than good to consumers.

 

I've always adopted that easy going relaxed way with my suppliers and it's paid off handsomely, and on the very rare occasion it doesn't I don't even consider the law, just writing the event off. Overall that's left me better off than anyone who has exercised their rights, both financially and emotionally.

.

Very well put - I agree wholeheartedly with that

Back on the thread:rolleyes: The Electric Transport Shop is now selling the 905se Electric Bike Sales - Shop Online for Electric Bikes, Electric Vehicles and Cycle Accessories - 905se

 

from their shops in Cambridge, London and opening soon in Bristol and Oxford.

I note that 50cycles has an Oxford graduate, but The Electric Transport Shop has 2 Cambridge graduates. My family has 3 graduates, Edinburgh, Newcastle and Leeds, maybe we should start selling Electric Bikes;)

 

John

Back on the thread:rolleyes: The Electric Transport Shop is now selling the 905se Electric Bike Sales - Shop Online for Electric Bikes, Electric Vehicles and Cycle Accessories - 905se

 

from their shops in Cambridge, London and opening soon in Bristol and Oxford.

I note that 50cycles has an Oxford graduate, but The Electric Transport Shop has 2 Cambridge graduates. My family has 3 graduates, Edinburgh, Newcastle and Leeds, maybe we should start selling Electric Bikes;)

 

John

 

Under the slogan, "The educated choice"?

.

I had been looking at the TORQ or the FORZA but if I can have a 905se now for quite a bit less from 'electricbikesales' then it seems a good idea but I thought Wisper stated on this thread that it would be March before any were available. Can someone shed any light on this for me before I contact one of the said companies for an answer. Many thanks.

Hi jonbar,

 

Sorry, I'm no wiser than you re availability of the 905se, but I feel compelled to say I was very much less than impressed at the way the company in question responded to serious problems with batteries, purchased as part of a motor kit, experienced by several members here. I suppose the quality of support you'd get with the Wisper though might depend who's providing it - the retailer or the manufacturer, directly or indirectly? Just thought you ought to know .

 

Take care, Stuart.

The Electric Transport Shop has actually been selling the 905se for a few months, although it only appeared on their web site recently. I tried one there back in the Autumn.

 

I understand these are from the first container load of these bikes to come to Europe. There will be a relaunch later in the year when the next container arrives, with some modifications - which appear to be pretty minor.

 

I bought a bike (not a Wisper) from these guys last year and have had no problems in 2,000 miles of riding. Nothing has gone wrong with the bike so I have had no opportunity to test their service!

 

Frank

Edited January 6, 200818 yr by frank9755

Thank you

 

Thanks to all respondents. Im very new to this world and only found this site a week or so ago but its a wealth of information and as contributors you should all be proud of yourselves. Its gone to the top of my favourites list. ALDBY, Ill be in touch!

For the best price on a 905se email or PM me;)

 

John

 

This is one of five German ones imported from Dominic in Germany by eBay user Giffard2 and still on sale on eBay Wisper 905SE Pedelec Ebike Elektrofahrrad NEU on eBay, also Elektrofahrräder, Fahrräder, Radsport, Sport (end time 12-Jan-08 10:31:03 GMT)

 

I thought about buying one of these but David Miall of Wisper UK told me that he would not carry out any warranty work or support whatsoever on these German ones (subject of other threads on this forum).

Warranty in certain areas only - not legal.

 

... The manufacturer can legitimately direct where sales are made anyway. ...

Yes, sure. But what they legally can`t do is restrict warranty to certain areas.

I think we've flogged this one to death Jonathon. The theory is fine, but I know what happens in practice, and I'm a realist.

 

Are you really saying that laws never get broken?

.

Yes, in practical terms, I think it would be a nightmare to make an unwilling manufacturer/retailer do warranty work on a bike if they didn't want to. I had a similar problem with a new Yamaha motorbike years ago.... it needed warranty work and the local Yamaha dealer refused to do it until Yamaha made them do it. The point there was that the manufacturer forced them to do the work. In the case we've discussed, it's the manufacturer themselves who won't do the work in the UK. That's why I steered clear of it all.

I imported a car in 1984,there were rumours that the dealers wouldnt touch them but in fact they were very obliging.I suppose it is a bit of a problem when whisper uk say they won't touch them as there is nobody else to go to.

I imported a car in 1984,there were rumours that the dealers wouldnt touch them but in fact they were very obliging.I suppose it is a bit of a problem when whisper uk say they won't touch them as there is nobody else to go to.

 

Yes, exactly what I thought. I imagined paying about £900including transport for one of the German Wisper bikes and then finding it just stopped working one day, or worked oddly or whatever. Then what? Send it back to Germany? I think Wisper's idea was to put me off buying one of the German ones and buy encourage me to pay a lot more for a UK one. If so, it backfired as I bought neither.

Understood re distribution. What about the warranty aspect of things though? If a German Wisper bike needs warranty work, is it reasonable for Wisper UK to insist that it would need to be returned to Germany, even though it's the same manufacturer? It certainly put me off buying one of the German 905se's and, to be honest, it influenced me re buying a British 905se too because I thought the refusal to do warranty work was related to the price discrepancy...

 

Well I am kind of hoping that the wisper guys in the UK will assist a damsel in distress if need be? I am hoping that I won't need their help but I am concerned about not having any back up.

I purchased a product from Germany in good faith and was not aware of the warranty problem until post purchase and I have only just read the this full thread

So far so good with the bike and no obvious problems as yet. I will let you know how I go with the Wisper company if I were to get into difficulty.

Regards

Mandy

I think this issue of "grey imports" and warranty is similar to that with cars. Years ago, I purchased a couple of Japanese cars direct from Japan, because they were right hand drive, much better equipped than UK models and much cheaper, even including shipping in a container.

 

The problem I found was that the warranty was "return to base", in other words, I needed to ship the car back to Japan for attention, if needed. I found that the UK dealers wouldn't even service the car, or supply spares if you let them know that it was a JDM model.

 

I challenged the legality of this, but found that the dealers were in the right. Although my car was a Mitsubishi and the dealer in the UK is called Mitsubishi, the UK dealership is actually a different company, as was the Japanese Mitsubishi dealer I bought the car from. There were actually three companies, Mitsubishi the manufacturer, Mitsubishi the Japanese dealership and Mitsubishi the UK dealership, all with slightly different registered names. As such, there was no obligation in law for the UK Mitsubishi company to honour any sort of warranty offered either by the manufacturer or the Japanese dealership.

 

After a great deal of hassle my local dealer agreed to supply service spares, but I was astounded at the cost, £30 for an oil filter, for example. I then discovered that he was under instructions from the UK Mitsubishi company to double the price of any parts that he knew were to be supplied for a grey import. He was kind enough to tell me which part of the chassis number identified the car as a JDM model and gave me the equivalent UK model code. From then on I ordered parts using my "hybrid" chassis number and never had a problem from any dealer.

 

The moral of the tale is that although consumer law is powerful and provides a great deal of protection, it won't necessarily cover grey imports of products that have an official UK dealer as well as you might expect. If you buy from a dealer in Germany, then it is he that has the responsibility in law to honour any warranty, not a dealer in the UK that happens to have a similar name and supply a similar product. Under EU legislation it is the person selling the goods directly to you, not the manufacturer, who carries responsibility for fitness for purpose, etc.

 

Jeremy

Jeremy,

 

As I understand it, as a consumer there are two forms of protection that you enjoy. One is your statutory right to take it back to the person who sold it to you if it doesn't work. That's a retailer thing and in this case would be between Mandy and E-wheels of Hamburg, aka Wisperbikes.de. The other is the warranty. I believe that is a manufacturer thing which the manufacturer is obliged to honour throughout the EU. In this case the manufacturer is Wisper Electric Vehicle Company of the UK. The Wisper guys are trying to welsh on this warranty obligation by hiding behind the fact that the sale of goods responsibility lies with the retailer and ignoring the warranty responsibility.

 

Of course the Wisper chaps are quite right in what they say, in the same way that a man of whom you ask the time may be right if he keeps saying 'Monday'. However neither may be answering exactly the question which has been asked!

 

Cars were a little bit different because for a long time (until a couple of years ago) they were covered by what was called a Block Exemption, which enabled manufacturers to insist that service under warranty was carried out by their nominated dealer network (The EU has now done away with this). Also, in your example, there were the three Misubishi companies; here there are just two with Wisper UK being the OEM, and hence responsible for the manufacturer's warranty, as well as a UK direct retailer. The final difference is that Mitsubishi, the OEM, of Japan would not be covered by the long arm of EU law. Wisper of Kent / Hampshire would be!

 

Frank

Edited February 11, 200818 yr by frank9755

Thanks for that, Frank, I hadn't realised that the bikes in question were actually made in the UK! In that case I think it seems perfectly reasonable for them to honour the warranty.

 

It seems bizarre that it actually makes sense to buy a British made bike from Germany. Still, I suppose it's no worse than the situation that existed with cars a few years ago. I found it very odd that I could buy a car from Japan, that was the same model (but much better specification) as was sold in the UK, for far less than the UK price, even after paying shipping, duty, VAT, SVA fog light mod etc.

 

Jeremy

Sorry Jeremy, I wasn't completely clear. They're not made in the UK but made in China by the Chinese subsidiary of the UK-based OEM - ie manufacture is offshored (in the same way as Dawes bikes are made in Vietnam and Ridgeback made wherever they are made, but for a British company). I don't think that changes the main thrust though - the manufacturer is based in the UK.

 

Frank