I sold my bike to some people who gave to there 15yr old son, The police then impounded it and I am now getting loads of "you ripped us off comments come and collect it from the police pound, give us our money back" comments and abuse.

I understand there problem and have offered to asist where I can with advice, they say the officer quoted them dpp v king 2008.

I looked this up and found the police were wrong in this case as it states no pedals on scooter and the scooter I sold them is legal 15 mph max under 40kg etc

 

I need the link to where the eu law took over/ superseded from uk if anyone knows where the legal definition link is on internet.

 

I enclose the link I have found

Road Traffic Offences: Legal Guidance: The Crown Prosecution Service

DPP v King [2008] EWHC 447 (Admin)

 

K was stopped by police whilst riding a 'City Mantis' electric scooter on a public road. The scooter looked like a bicycle except that it did not have any pedals or other means of manual propulsion and it was capable of speeds up to 10 miles per hour. K was charged with driving a motor vehicle whilst disqualified and with no insurance.

 

At trial the issue arose regarding whether the scooter was a motor vehicle. K was acquitted and the case was passed to the High Court following the decision of the trial judge for definitive determination of whether a 'City Mantis' electric scooter was a motor vehicle as defined in the 1988 Act. The Appeal was allowed and the case was remitted with a direction to convict. The scooter was a motor vehicle according to section 185 of the 1988 Act.

 

If anyone can help I would be truly grateful

many thanks

Fatts

What bike did you sell. how fast did it go etc.

 

If I remember correctly, the guy on the scooter was drunk, and he'd been disqualified for being drunk in charge, and this was about the third time he'd been caught drunk in charge of his scooter.

 

Edit: now that I see a picture of the scooter, I don't think that that was the one where the guy was drunk.

Even if you sold them a bike that was not road legal, I don't think they have any legal recourse against you, unless you advertised it was road legal or told them it was.. if it's not, but they assumed it was, they should have asked or checked.. they can't sue you, because you might have no clue what they intended to use it for, or whether they might modify it to make it legal etc. The burden is definitely on them to find out the law and check the bike is legal.

 

The law is a bit of a grey area as far what is legal and what is not... the way I understand it, technically MOST if not all, electric bicycles are illegal (even 250W 15.5mph etc) until they're certified as meeting the legal standards.. however it's not practical to do this, so there is tolerance by the law and providing the motor is 250W rated and the bicycle meets the guidelines on pedals, weight etc, its safe to use it on roads uncertified.

 

Assuming the bike is fully road legal, but looks like a scooter/moped and has confused the police...I think it's a case of burden of proof is on the owner to prove it meets the legal requirements..flecc has posted on the law about this and procedure for getting a bike certified, as has Jeremy I think who acted as a witness in a case like this, so those are the guys to ask who might be able to help this couple... it basically means getting it certified at a testing place.. although the owner may not have to do that if the police are going to test it themselves or send it for testing if they believe its definitely not legal and are intending to prosecute. My guess is they won't be able to prosecute for riding an unlicensed/unregistered vehicle until the police carry out that test and can satisfy the court its not an electric bicycle and the law has been broke.

 

I think these scooter/moped looking e-bikes are a real problem as far as the police are concerned and it's like waving a red flag to a bull. I was considering buying one myself 3 years ago when I first heard of e-bikes as they looked fun.. I contacted my local police station to find out the legal position and the officer I dealt with had no clue..after 2 days he told me its a grey area but even if they are road legal, he recommended I didn't buy one because he said if the police saw me its almost certain they would regularly stop me and probably take it most likely, thinking its an unregistered motor vehicle.

Edited December 23, 201213 yr by morphix

Did the bike have pedals? What motor power did it have? Got any pictures?

 

This is about the eu regs

 

EU-Directive regulates Pedelec-Status - ExtraEnergy.org

 

Apparently we should have introduced the 250W into uk law by november 9th 2003

Was it a bicycle or a scooter that you sold?

If the bike had a 250W rated motor, functional pedals, and was limited to 15.5mph, then regardless of what it looked like..it SHOULD pass the EN guidelines for being an electric bicycle. If it's looking like a moped and not a bicycle, then probably the police are confused and want to satisify themselves it meets the guidelines eh.

 

If the police use their powers of seizure (and destroy it without testing or taking it to court) then the couple should sue the police, not the seller...providing the bike is road legal and likely to pass the certifying test of course.

Edited December 23, 201213 yr by morphix

Legally you're in the clear as the seller. The law allows goods to be sold here, new or secondhand, that cannot legally be used. The only recourse the purchaser could possibly have is if the bike was new and you had misrepresented it, i.e. said it was legal to use when it is not.

 

The facts regarding legality have been discussed here in depth recently, and the plain fact is that few, if any, electric bikes sold in the UK in the past few years are actually legal. The authorities are turning a blind eye, because in large part the problem is a direct result of the government's failure to pass EU regulations into law for the past few years.

 

As such, if the bike in question meets the EU spec, then I doubt very much if any action would be taken against anyone riding it. If the bike doesn't meet the EU spec, then that's a different issue, but a great deal would depend on its performance and appearance, particularly if it happened to be one of the very dubious scooters with attached pedals. I know from personal experience of trying to help someone that the police view electric scooters that pretend to be ebikes, at least in my neck of the woods, as unregistered motor vehicles, and act accordingly.

 

So, unless the bike you sold was really a scooter in disguise then I'd not worry and just remind the purchaser that the law of caveat emptor applies. Harsh, perhaps, but no less wrong for that.

Many thanks all been a great help

The bike is the scooter looking type but fully legal as a bicycle

regards

Fatts

Many thanks all been a great help

The bike is the scooter looking type but fully legal as a bicycle

regards

Fatts

 

Regretfully it won't be legal, in all probability, unless it carries a plate stating that it meets the very old UK EAPC regulations, which is fairly unlikely. I don't think that any ebikes have been sold in the UK in the past few years that comply with those regulations.

 

The scooter type ebikes are dodgier than most with regard to legality, depending on the design and how usable the pedals are. I know from personal experience that the ones with pedals that stick out of the running boards are viewed with deep suspicion by the police around here, for example.

Regretfully it won't be legal, in all probability, unless it carries a plate stating that it meets the very old UK EAPC regulations, which is fairly unlikely. I don't think that any ebikes have been sold in the UK in the past few years that comply with those regulations.

 

The scooter type ebikes are dodgier than most with regard to legality, depending on the design and how usable the pedals are. I know from personal experience that the ones with pedals that stick out of the running boards are viewed with deep suspicion by the police around here, for example.

 

It seems as I figured then, that basically everything is illegal and we're just fortunate that the police and authorities turn a blind eye as you say...we should consider e-bikes a priviledge and not push our luck... the key thing is not to draw attention to yourself from the police...if you do, they're just going to enforce the law and say "this doesn't have a plate/its not certified road legal" and so they can use their powers to seize and destroy with a penalty or prosecute you, depending on circumstances.

 

Jeremy, could this couple argue their case to the police that the bike meets the EN regulations and could they apply to get the bike back to get it certified? Assuming that was economically worthwhile, depending on how much they paid and how much certifying it costs etc..

Is this it?

 

http://img.tjskl.org.cn/pic/z5d910d-300x300-1/city_mantis_electric_scooter.jpg

Regretfully it won't be legal, in all probability, unless it carries a plate stating that it meets the very old UK EAPC regulations, which is fairly unlikely. I don't think that any ebikes have been sold in the UK in the past few years that comply with those regulations.

 

The scooter type ebikes are dodgier than most with regard to legality, depending on the design and how usable the pedals are. I know from personal experience that the ones with pedals that stick out of the running boards are viewed with deep suspicion by the police around here, for example.

 

This is the crazy situation we are in with regard to the law. This country was under an obligation from the EU to implement the 250w limit by November 2003 yet it has failed to do so. Is this one of those situations where it is going to take a test case to decide exactly what the law is in this country?

 

How can the government expect people to obey the law or the police reasonably enforce the law when they dont really know what the law is themselves?

Whatever the power of the blke, it is legal to possess it.

 

This is not like heroin, where simple possession is illegal.

 

All the OP has done is transfer legal ownership - possession - of the bike to the buyer.

 

What the buyer does with it is up to him/her.

 

Seems the buyer thinks he can somehow palm the current mess back to the OP.

 

The OP is going to have to administer the hard word to the buyer at some point.

 

I would do it sooner rather than later.

A lot of these scooter/mini moped type machines have a pillion seat-I have asked this before but I am sure you are not allowed to carry pillion passengers on a bicycle?

What do members think about pillion seats?

Dave

Kudoscycles

A lot of these scooter/mini moped type machines have a pillion seat-I have asked this before but I am sure you are not allowed to carry pillion passengers on a bicycle?

What do members think about pillion seats?

Dave

Kudoscycles

 

Section 24 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, says that “Not more than one person may be carried on a road on a bicycle not propelled by mechanical power unless it is constructed or adapted for the carriage of more than one person.”

 

so as I read it a pillion seat is legal if the bike was built that way.

Edited December 23, 201213 yr by GaRRy

Some more info re passengers..

 

http://ukcyclerules.com/2011/09/13/cycling-carrying-passengers/

 

 

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/12/24/y2evudaj.jpg

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited December 23, 201213 yr by Old_Dave

It seems as I figured then, that basically everything is illegal and we're just fortunate that the police and authorities turn a blind eye as you say...we should consider e-bikes a priviledge and not push our luck... the key thing is not to draw attention to yourself from the police...if you do, they're just going to enforce the law and say "this doesn't have a plate/its not certified road legal" and so they can use their powers to seize and destroy with a penalty or prosecute you, depending on circumstances.

 

Jeremy, could this couple argue their case to the police that the bike meets the EN regulations and could they apply to get the bike back to get it certified? Assuming that was economically worthwhile, depending on how much they paid and how much certifying it costs etc..

 

Making a successful argument to the police after the event is going to require hard evidence, I think. Whereas one might be able to convince a police officer not to act in the first place by making it clear that the bike meets the spirit of the law, once they've impounded it I am near-certain that the only argument that might succeed would be to produce evidence of either compliance with the EU requirements (and hope that the DfT "blind eye" policy works) or to produce evidence of compliance with UK law and an explanation for the missing data plate.

 

If this is a scooter-type ebike then I very strongly suspect that it's a long way from being legal to use, although as I mentioned above it's perfectly legal to sell, so the seller is in the clear. I can understand the buyers anger, but again, as I said above, caveat emptor applies and the only person at fault is the buyer for not having checked that the scooter could be legally used here.

K was stopped by police whilst riding a 'City Mantis' electric scooter on a public road. The scooter looked like a bicycle except that it did not have any pedals or other means of manual propulsion and it was capable of speeds up to 10 miles per hour. K was charged with driving a motor vehicle whilst disqualified and with no insurance.

 

Fatts

 

One most important point comes immediately to mind - if it doesn't have pedals it is not a bicycle and anything else is irrelevant.

 

You won't have committed any offence by selling such a vehicle but even if you were riding it instead of him you could well be - correctly - arrested, because it would be a motor vehicle. The pedals, or in this case the lack of them, are critical.

 

Rog.

Ebike definition not just a UK problem:

 

Get act together on e-bikes

 

http://observer.com/2012/08/hell-on-wheels-environmentally-friendly-electric-bikes-poses-city-menace-or-do-they/

Edited December 24, 201213 yr by shemozzle999

Member Synthman has one of the scooter styled e-bikes shown below, 250 watts but I think an independently acting throttle so not EU legal and also not conforming to the UK's 200 watt EAPC regulations:

 

http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2009/10/20/ninja-electric-bike_gzGih_11446.jpg

Edited December 24, 201213 yr by flecc

Member Synthman has one of the scooter styled e-bikes shown below, 250 watts but I think an independently acting throttle so not EU legal and also not conforming to the UK's 200 watt EAPC regulations:

 

http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2009/10/20/ninja-electric-bike_gzGih_11446.jpg

 

But was it this company who went to court to prove they were legal? It might of mentioned that on its website, if I can find it again.

Ebike definition not just a UK problem:

 

Get act together on e-bikes

 

Hell on Wheels: Environmentally Friendly Electric Bikes Pose City Menace…Or Do They? | Observer

 

Well, Canada is the land of mounted policemen and just about the only country in the civilized world which won't allow someone done for DUI in their home country to even cross their borders for 5 years, including where it classified as a driving offence rather than a criminal one in their own country. Puts Dick Cheney in a tricky spot !! I wouldn't be at all surprised if their little "oversight" wasn't a draconian loophole for their criminal code created by design.

There's a review of the City Mantis at: City Mantis Electric Scooter : Product Review which includes this photo:-

 

[ATTACH]4721.vB[/ATTACH]

 

Those are not pedals, they're clearly foot rests. I can't see any way this qualifies as a bicycle.

But was it this company who went to court to prove they were legal? It might of mentioned that on its website, if I can find it again.

 

It cannot be proved to be legal in the UK if it has an independently acting full range throttle and a 250 watt motor. Pedelec only with 250 watts accords to EU law, or 200 watts with an independent throttle accords to the UK law.

 

If the DfT allows independent throttles in 2016 when they complete their revision of the law, this kind of bike will then become legal in the UK, but still not in mainland Europe.

As some will recall, I got involved in trying to help a chap with a scooter who similarly was stopped by the police. In his case the scooter wasn't impounded and he wasn't charged, just advised to get it registered (something I tried to help with by taking the thing for an MSVA test, which it failed).

 

This is a photo of a very similar scooter to the one I know for sure is not only illegal, but cannot easily be made legal to use here:

 

[ATTACH]4722.vB[/ATTACH]

 

We didn't attempt to argue that it could ever be classified as an electric bike, as the (very helpful) traffic officer demonstrated quite clearly that it was near-impossible to use the pedals as the primary means of propelling the thing, and I had to agree with him. Apart from the difficulty imposed by having the pedals spaced so far apart as to make pedalling very awkward, there was also the added problem that the pedals seemed to be geared at around a 1:1 ratio with the small rear wheel, making the cadence so high as to make pedalling faster than a walking pace impossible.

 

The EU EPAC definition includes this: "cycle, equipped with pedals and an auxiliary electric motor, which cannot be propelled exclusively by means of this auxiliary electric motor" and the UK EAPC definition includes this: "be fitted with pedals by means of which it is capable of being propelled" and that the UK definition has been clarified by case law (Winter Vs DPP) such that pedals not only have to be capable of propelling the vehicle, but that such pedal propulsion has to be a viable means of propelling it in the absence of electric motor power. Anyone who tries to pedal a scooter such as the one in that image above will quickly realise that the pedals are purely for cosmetic purposes!