I did think of importing some machines like Synthman's scooter but realised very quickly that legality is one thing,police perception is another.

First of all understand that these machines are very slow with only 250 watts power,they really need minimum 500 watts to be useable.

That aside I took a photo of the machine into my local police station and without any details of specification I showed a photo of a mini moped type machine-the policeman said it was a motorbike and needed tax,insurance,helmet,No plate.....I then showed him a Kudos Tourer photo his response was immediate that was an electric bicycle and didn't need tax,insurance,helmet,No plate.

The point I am making here is that it was possible to make both machines in specification identical,the Tourer does not have a throttle but the police didn't know that.

I decided that whilst it was possible to make the mini moped machine into what could be considered bicycle legal it just wasn't worth all the hassle that would be attracted to a machine that in the perception of the police was a moped,whereas the bicycle looking machine would attract no hassle.

Might not be a legal point but is certainly a practical one.

Dave

Kudoscycles

You're spot on, perception is very much more important than absolute legality, I'm sure.

 

For the same reason I've made all my DIY ebike builds as discreet as possible, such that it's hard to tell at a quick glance that they are even electric bikes.

 

As the old saying goes, "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck", at least in the eyes of a passing police officer.

Member Synthman has one of the scooter styled e-bikes shown below, 250 watts but I think an independently acting throttle so not EU legal and also not conforming to the UK's 200 watt EAPC regulations:

 

http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2009/10/20/ninja-electric-bike_gzGih_11446.jpg

 

The motor power is listed as 200w. Electric Bikes / Bicycles - Steel Frame - Electric Bikes 18 inch wheel - Ninja LPB With Lithium Battery Electric Scooter Road Legal

 

It has no rating plate though. I haven't ridden any other electric bike to compare it to, but when I see others on the road, only the A2B Metro is quicker.

 

The police have plenty of opportunity to stop me. There's always one behind me trying to overtake when I go near the police stations, and I see them on foot when I ride down paths but they have never questioned the legality of it. I have been stopped though for allegedly going through a red light. But the legality issue is one of the reasons I'd never have another one, as well as the lack of power.

Section 24 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, says that “Not more than one person may be carried on a road on a bicycle not propelled by mechanical power unless it is constructed or adapted for the carriage of more than one person.”

 

so as I read it a pillion seat is legal if the bike was built that way.

 

That's the way I see it, too. Those add-on kiddy seats and cargo bikes with more than one seat would be quite legal as long as they're not just thrown together with chewing gum and tie-wraps.

That picture above posted by muckymits is exactly the model I was going to buy 3 years ago..they used to be all over eBay and there were importers with fancy sites selling them for around £500. I'm so glad I didn't buy one now and listened to the advice I originally came here for which advised me about the ambiguity with the law and police..plus the obvious handicaps these scooter bikes bring about not being able to go on pavements or bicycle lanes.

 

The pedals as Jeremy said are merely an attempt to make this look like it complies with the law but as he said, it doesn't take a test or genius to see pedalling one of these machines is next to impossible any distance. That's another reason not to buy one, if the battery goes you're gonna need roadside assistance.

 

The only place I imagine something like this would ever be useful is either China (and according to other posts they're moving to ban them from roads too soon), or some vast airport or other private lands, to move documents and packages around etc

 

Unless of course, you went to the cost and trouble of getting it registered as an electrical motor vehicle with number plates on it, MOT etc.. I think the procedure and cost of that has been covered already in other posts.. if you're gonna do that, may as well just buy a proper entry-level electric moped which comes registered? You can get them for around a grand new and much less second hand. You would have to sit the CBT of course, but you would be able to go faster.. I think the limit is 30mph or something? Not sure.

Edited December 25, 201213 yr by morphix

The pedals on that one are much closer together than on other similar bikes, but the fixed gear is useless. On smooth level ground it can be pedalled quite well, but you won't get anywhere fast. The biggest issues I've had with those pedals are they bash my ankles, and they scrape the ground when leaning through tight turns. I always ride in the cycle lane unless it is on a pavement. Nobody has ever challenged me.

 

The limit of the CBT is 125cc, some bikes can exceed the speed limit.

The pedals on that one are much closer together than on other similar bikes, but the fixed gear is useless. On smooth level ground it can be pedalled quite well, but you won't get anywhere fast. The biggest issues I've had with those pedals are they bash my ankles, and they scrape the ground when leaning through tight turns. I always ride in the cycle lane unless it is on a pavement. Nobody has ever challenged me.

 

The limit of the CBT is 125cc, some bikes can exceed the speed limit.

 

No offence taken I hope Synthman from my posts, I forgot you own one of these e-bikes. It's interesting the police haven't stopped you.. I don't know your age, but maybe people who are older and look like responsible cyclists are less likely to be stopped.

 

The other day I was coming back from the sorting office late one evening via the quiet bus route lane as I always do.. and who should I see pull onto the lane from a side path, but some youth on one of those "pocket bikes" the type which have a tiny petrol engine and make a terrible whining noise.. unregistered and totally illegal of course to be on a normal road, let alone a buses-only lane. He had the shock of his life when he saw me, as I look very like much a copper I've been told with my hi-vis jacket, a wide black clip belt (to keep the draft out, its two sizes too big!) and my camera mounted on my shoulder.. the look on his face was priceless!

Edited December 25, 201213 yr by morphix

No offence taken I hope Synthman from my posts, I forgot you own one of these e-bikes. It's interesting the police haven't stopped you.. I don't know your age, but maybe people who are older and look like responsible cyclists are less likely to be stopped.

 

 

No offence taken at all! Police stopped me twice, one for the red light incident (I went through it on amber but they claimed red) and once I had a passenger with no helmet, but they left us alone as soon as they realised it was electric. I'm 27 but I've been riding it since I was 24. Some of the police I see when riding must recognise me from the times they arrested me years ago! :o

Another can of worms..JHMO....I would........reimburse the buyer, in case they seek 'where there's blame there's a claim litigious sharp suit' that would give you no end of grief....

Another can of worms..JHMO....I would........reimburse the buyer, in case they seek 'where there's blame there's a claim litigious sharp suit' that would give you no end of grief....

 

But it wouldn't cause no end of grief.

 

Any legal dept will laugh out of the office for even suggesting the seller is at fault.

Right had time to read all now.

The scooter is 250w with pedals plate stating as such and 25 kph has full range of throttle speed no pedal assist so it would appear I am wrong as I told them it was fully legal.

It appears the E.U. and U.K. laws ave been cherry picked and they are in the right to insist on there money back as I would hope for redress if someone did the same to me.

Many thanks again

Fatts

I told them it was fully legal

 

Oopsie daisy!

Oopsie daisy!

 

Ah. That does change things a bit..they could technically sue you.. but if it was a private sale, you could plead ignorance and they would have to demonstrate that you most likely knew it was not legal and wilfully misled them into buying into, which could be difficult.. I think in a private sale, it's a case of "buyer beware" and it's down to whoever plans to ride it on a road to check the law properly. Technically you're right anyway, it's not illegal to sell the bike or own it, only to use it on roads eh. They would probably argue you knew what they meant or didn't volunteer the full facts.

 

If it was a commercial sale/business sale, they would have solid grounds for a refund or to sue you and there's no defence in that situation, because the law is on the consumer side and the emphasis is on the seller to take on the burden legality, i.e. selling an item "fit for use" and advertising clearly.

Edited December 26, 201213 yr by morphix

But it wouldn't cause no end of grief.

 

Any legal dept will laugh out of the office for even suggesting the seller is at fault.

 

 

Absolutely right! No laws have been broken, the contract under which the ebike was purchased seems to have been valid (there was clearly an offer, and acceptance of that offer and the exchange of a consideration), and, as with any other purchase caveat emptor applies.

 

The purchaser is responsible for determining whether or not what they are buying fits the purpose they have in mind for it. If they didn't check whether it could be legally ridden on the road as a bicycle before they purchased it, then they have only themselves to blame. They cannot, in law, take action against the seller, unless the ebike in question was new and was sold with a misleading description, which doesn't seem to be the case here. For second hand goods the seller is under no obligation to give an accurate description of the legality of the goods being sold, and even if he/she does then it doesn't mean much, as they probably would not be considered, in law, to be competent to give such an opinion.

Edited December 26, 201213 yr by Jeremy

Absolutely right! No laws have been broken, the contract under which the ebike was purchased seems to have been valid (there was clearly an offer, and acceptance of that offer and the exchange of a consideration), and, as with any other purchase caveat emptor applies.

 

The purchaser is responsible for determining whether or not what they are buying fits the purpose they have in mind for it. If they didn't check whether it could be legally ridden on the road as a bicycle before they purchased it, then they have only themselves to blame. They cannot, in law, take action against the seller, unless the ebike in question was new and was sold with a misleading description, which doesn't seem to be the case here. For second hand goods the seller is under no obligation to give an accurate description of the legality of the goods being sold, and even if he/she does then it doesn't mean much, as they probably would not be considered, in law, to be competent to give such an opinion.

 

I think if there was intent though to mislead someone, there would still be grounds to sue someone, even in a private sale. That would be difficult to prove though I imagine unless the seller admits it in court and the court is satisfied the seller knew what he was saying wasn't true. If that couple asked outright "is this legal to ride on roads" and that owner knew it wasn't or had doubts and told them it was, that's dishonest and the court could award damages for the couples legal costs. Granted, the couple still should have checked from a reliable source or with the police... but the court take a dim view of people who mislead and trick people into parting with their cash. If they're convinced it was wilful deception, they will most likely hear the case. I'm not suggesting here for one second that fatts was being deceitful or tricked the couple.. I'm just giving a hypothetical example of how a private civil action could work in such a situation. Even in a private sale, there's a contract or agreement between two parties, and the couple may have entered into it in good faith expecting something agreed and getting something else.

 

In a business sale, the seller would have a legal responsibility to state categorically its not road legal or that the buyer should check the law before riding it on roads. If they didn't, then various consumer protection laws come into play, most likely the Sale of Goods Act. Most likely the couple would be entitled to a full refund at the very least as the item wasn't advertised correctly and is not fit for purpose.

Edited December 26, 201213 yr by morphix

Putting the law to one side for a moment, there is a moral question here. If the sale was made as a result of the buyer responding to an advert which gave no suggestion that the bike was legal to use on a road / public place, then I would say that its their tough luck and that they should have made appropriate enquiries before buying.

 

By, "no suggestion that the bike was legal to use" I mean an implied suggestion that it was legal. For example, for the seller to say that he had been using it on a road, saying that it would be ideal for the 15 year old to use, or that the bike is a good low cost means of transport would be an implied suggestion that it was legal. Although under these circumstances it would be hard, if not impossible, for the purchaser to take any legal action, I think there is a moral question as a novice buyer might not be fortunate enough to have the depth of knowledge which we have. I think I'd be inclined to give them their money back if I'd sold it under such circumstances. But, as I have said, if they had bought it from a very simple, electrically powered bike for sale advert, then I think they have to live with their decision to buy.

Edited December 26, 201213 yr by tillson

Putting the law to one side for a moment, there is a moral question here. If the sale was made as a result of the buyer responding to an advert which gave no suggestion that the bike was legal to use on a road / public place, then I would say that its their tough luck and that they should have made appropriate enquiries before buying.

 

By, "no suggestion that the bike was legal to use" I mean an implied suggestion that it was legal. For example, for the seller to say that he had been using it on a road, saying that it would be ideal for the 15 year old to use, or that the bike is a good low cost means of transport would be an implied suggestion that it was legal. Although under these circumstances it would be hard, if not impossible, for the purchaser to take any legal action, I think there is a moral question as a novice buyer might not be fortunate enough to have the depth of knowledge which we have. I think I'd be inclined to give them their money back if I'd sold it under such circumstances. But, as I have said, if they had bought it from a very simple, electrically powered bike for sale advert, then I think they have to live with their decision to buy.

 

I agree tillson, definitely a moral issue this one. The law as we know is at the very least ambiguous when it comes to legality of bikes..something that is CLEARLY illegal though or likely to attract the attention of the old bill, I think the seller has a moral duty to point this out and tell the novice buyer the potential risk they're taking if they ride it on the road. You might lose the sale, but better than landing someone in trouble or someone suing you later.

The law takes into account the "good faith" argument here, though. If the seller, at the time of making the sale, believed that what they were selling was legal, and had no reasonable grounds for believing otherwise, then he/she acted in good faith. There was no intent to mislead, and so there is no case for any action to be brought, civil or criminal.

 

We all understand now how messy the legal position is surrounding the use of ebikes in the UK. It is clear from recent discussions here that there was been a great deal of misinformation about legality that has spread, without malice in the main, throughout the UK ebike world. It is therefore completely understandable that someone could mistakenly describe an ebike as being fully legal, believing themselves that it was at that time.

 

Reading this thread I don't believe there was any intent to mislead, so no moral case against the seller. This looks to be one of those unfortunate cases where the law has caught up with a purchaser as a consequence of the messy situation we are in legally. I strongly suspect there will be more cases like this as the police become more aware of the situation, particularly for ebikes that are really thinly disguised motor scooters.

The law takes into account the "good faith" argument here, though. If the seller, at the time of making the sale, believed that what they were selling was legal, and had no reasonable grounds for believing otherwise, then he/she acted in good faith. There was no intent to mislead, and so there is no case for any action to be brought, civil or criminal.

 

We all understand now how messy the legal position is surrounding the use of ebikes in the UK. It is clear from recent discussions here that there was been a great deal of misinformation about legality that has spread, without malice in the main, throughout the UK ebike world. It is therefore completely understandable that someone could mistakenly describe an ebike as being fully legal, believing themselves that it was at that time.

 

Reading this thread I don't believe there was any intent to mislead, so no moral case against the seller. This looks to be one of those unfortunate cases where the law has caught up with a purchaser as a consequence of the messy situation we are in legally. I strongly suspect there will be more cases like this as the police become more aware of the situation, particularly for ebikes that are really thinly disguised motor scooters.

 

Agreed. Just unfortunate for the buyer and if the law was clearer this wouldn't have happened in most likelihood. I agree with your last point too that more cases are likely.. definitely wouldn't recommend anyone buying one of those scooter ebikes unless its for use on private land.