I cant imagine that all the S class bikes currently being sold in the UK are completely uncovered regarding third party, public liability and product liability insurance, but maybe they are? Are those selling S class bikes simply taking the risk that nothing ever goes wrong?

 

They are uncovered and in UK law it's not the sellers responsibility* to ensure the bike is used in a manner according to the law - that's entirely the users responsibility.

 

As long as it's not mis-advertised as road legal then sellers haven't got anything to worry about.

 

*However it is an offence to knowingly allow someone to drive an motor vehicle that you own, on a public road, that they are not insured for - in this scenario a dealer allowing a prospective purchaser to test ride a s class bike would be on very shaky ground.

 

Which brings up tha old question which no one has ever answered. Has anyone successfully registerd a S class bike as a moped/motorbike ?. Personally I think the deafening silence form the trade members on here who sell them for "off road" use says it all as Im sure if they had they would be shouting about it..

 

Why would anyone bother? It'd be cheaper, and you'd have a better performing machine, to just get a normal moped or low cc motorbike.

Edited March 6, 201313 yr by amigafan2003

 

 

Why would anyone bother? It'd be cheaper, and you'd have a better performing machine, to just get a normal moped or low cc motorbike.

 

If the law continues to be an utter ass about this I think what I might do is look seriously at getting an old snotter Honda /Yamaha stepthrough and electrify it. Simple change of power plant, akin to what I mentioned to flecc about re-motoring an ancient poppop.

The smaller stepthroughs, once shorn of surplus weight, would make reasonably good shopping bikes and be insurable, MoT-able, taxable (zero) and the brakes, suspension, tyres, etc are all cheap to maintain and up to the job. Plus, the bike's already been fully approved from day one.

 

Thinking on.. it needs nothing more than a 2, 3 or 4kW rear hub motor - where the current engine /gearbox assy is would occupied by batteries, so keeping the weight low down as before.

Actually, it's very do-able.

An insurance co would look seriously at that - known quantity, see, with just a change of motive power.

Edited March 6, 201313 yr by Scimitar

David, your questions have got me wondering how any prospective buyer gets to test ride any of these bikes.

If I turn up at a cycle shop wanting to try one I would hope that any responsible retailer would make me aware that legally they can only be used off-road. This would seem to put them (& me) on dodgy territory if they then allow me to test ride one off up the road.

 

They presumably take the commercial risk if you ride off on one up the road.

 

Note 50Cycles didn't bring their Pro Connects to the NEC Show, as I understand it specifically on account of the associated public liability issues and the bikes not being pre-registered as LPMs at the point of sale. They were quite open and explicit about the law surrounding registration and use of these bikes.

 

If I were a dealer I'd get a couple of demonstrators registered, ask to see a driving licence before they're let out of the showroom, insist on rider wearing a helmet (supplied), brief said rider on where they were allowed to ride the bikes and where not, and openly market them as LPMs. That might change things as regards liability insurance in terms of any future sale and also getting insurance for demo rides.

As I understand it, that's the whole point of basic Road Traffic Acts insurance - to cover the rider against third-party liability. I believe it's not possible for an insurance company to repudiate a third party claim even if the bike proved to be 'faulty'.

 

a/ No, the whole point of compulsory third party insurance is to provide for the victim.

b/ surely the insurance company has every right to repudiate unfair or spurious claims?

c/ what has the Road Traffic Act got to do with people on bicycles?

 

(a) That's what 'third party' means....

(b) RTA insurance specifically does not allow repudiation of third party claims. Otherwise, the insurance companies would be refusing to pay out if a driver was speeding, drunk, or convicted of any other offence.

© WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT BICYCLES! We are talking about possibly illegal possibly unregistered motor vehicles.

 

Rog.

Edited March 6, 201313 yr by rog_london

Thanks everyone for your input.

 

It seems then, from the posts so far, that unfortunately, it is probably impossible to get an S Class pedelec insured in the UK, for public, third party or product liability.

 

I must admit to being disappointed, I was very much looking forward to making the Grace S Class pedelecs available here.

 

All the best

 

David

David,why not try the suggestion already made of registering one for the road and making it road legal.It would be very interesting to many and might get over your insurance problem?

Hi Hoppy,

 

We could do but we would need Type Approval first. If we were to have each bike Type Approved before it was sold this would add hugely to the cost of the bike.

 

I am currently working on Electric Bike and EAPC TA and once we know the cost of TA for the model we will consider. However currently with S Class pedelecs, even if they have been TAd the rider would still need to abide by the laws and regs appertaining to moped use, including the wearing of a motorcycle helmet. I wonder if that would kill the market anyway?

 

All the best

 

David

Thanks,David.Aren't the Kalkhoff bikes type approved already? I would certainly be very interested in a fully legal bike that could do 30mph on the road silently and give me as much exercise as I wanted.A helmet wouldn't put me off!

Thanks,David.Aren't the Kalkhoff bikes type approved already? I would certainly be very interested in a fully legal bike that could do 30mph on the road silently and give me as much exercise as I wanted.A helmet wouldn't put me off!

 

Are you sure ? Remember that would be a approved motorcyle helmet not a bike helmet. They weigh far more (around a kilo for a open face) and have nowhere as much ventalation. Fine on a bike where you are just sat there but cant imagine using one and putting in much effort.

Hi Hoppy

 

I am sorry but I don't know. As the Pro Connect bikes are covered in Germany by laws that do not apply here in the UK, I think they would need to be TAd for use in the UK.

 

I agree, a 45kph pedelec machine would be brilliant, no throttle simply pedelec. We are being pushed by our dealer network to get the insurance issue sorted out, I must say I am keen to enter the market, but not at the cost of asking a customer to ride their bike unprotected by the correct insurances.

 

Currently a rider would need to wear the helmet required for moped use. I am not certain if that is the same as a full motorcycle helmet?

 

All the best

 

David

No problem,Garry,already have at least four m/c helmets of various types and there are all sorts on the market.

I'd encourage you to pursue it ,David.Must say I'd want a throttle,though!

Thanks for the encouragement Hoppy!

 

I think though that if the bikes were supplied with a throttle, they would simply be classed as electric mopeds. The S Class bikes in Germany don't tend to have throttles as far as I know.

 

Al the best

 

David

Currently a rider would need to wear the helmet required for moped use. I am not certain if that is the same as a full motorcycle helmet?

 

In the UK the answer is yes its the same.

Thanks Garry!

 

All the best

 

David

It seems then, from the posts so far, that unfortunately, it is probably impossible to get an S Class pedelec insured in the UK, for public, third party or product liability.

 

The third party risk is covered in any circumstance David.

 

An S class bike is a motor vehicle in UK law, so if not insured, by an arrangement with the government and the insurance industry, the Motor Insurance Bureau covers those uninsured third party liabilities. All the members of the industry share the annual costs of those liability payments. Only last year I successfully advised a friend to use this service.

 

Here is the link to read the agreements or make a claim: MIB Uninsured claims

Thanks Flecc,

 

That of course is great for the injured third party.

 

However I imagine the uninsured rider would have a huge problem judging by the advice on the MIB site for anyone wanting to claim under this cover. Before making the claim the third party must first;

 

Make a formal complaint to the police. You are entitled to do this as a refusal to give insurance information is a criminal offence under Section 154 of the Road Traffic Act 1988.

 

I would also imagine that if a claim was successful, the rider, and in certain circumstances the supplier could expect a call from the underwriters' law department looking to to recover their loss.

 

All the best

 

David

An S class bike is a motor vehicle in UK law, so if not insured, by an arrangement with the government and the insurance industry, the Motor Insurance Bureau covers those uninsured third party liabilities. All the members of the industry share the annual costs of those liability payments.

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I should think the insurance industry as a whole would be somewhat less than delighted with a dealer that deliberately followed that path: Not a lot of chance getting insurance cover in the future, methinks.

Indeed David, an S bike rider would have to declare their illegal use, but in many circumstances like serious injuries or death, that could be a much cheaper option than being faced with the third party payout and for many, possible bankruptcy.

 

But as said before, I'm quite sure the supplier has no liability since it is not in any way illegal to sell these bikes. The responsibility for legal use rests entirely with the user.

I should think the insurance industry as a whole would be somewhat less than delighted with a dealer that deliberately followed that path: Not a lot of chance getting insurance cover in the future, methinks.

 

You misunderstand, a dealer would not be making a claim in any circumstance. The scheme is to cover uninsured user liabilities after a third party suffered, and it would be the third party making the claim.

I'm quite sure the supplier has no liability since it is not in any way illegal to sell these bikes. The responsibility for legal use rests entirely with the user.

 

I understand Flecc, that we are able to sell the bikes perfectly legally. I am worried about the situation where a bike involved in the accident could be proven to be faulty and the cause of the accident. Of course we would refer back to the manufacturer, however the claim in the first instance would be made against the supplier in the UK and if the manufacturer's insurers wanted to be difficult the cost of a legal battle could be considerable.

 

Either way the S Class bike's rider would have problems as I would imagine it is impossible to insure a vehicle that is not legal in the first place. If insurance was obtained, I cannot imagine the underwriters paying out if there is a possibility of wriggling out of it.

 

I don't want to appear negative here, I love the idea of S Class bikes and as I have said before we would like to sell them if there is a way through this maze!

 

All the best

 

David

we would like to sell them

 

As long as you don't falsely advertise or misinform prospective buyers then there is absolutely nothing preventing you selling these bikes.

 

Just don't offer any test rides :-)

Except of course if I want our customers, dealers and our business to be covered incase of a disaster.

 

All the best, David

I am worried about the situation where a bike involved in the accident could be proven to be faulty and the cause of the accident. Of course we would refer back to the manufacturer, however the claim in the first instance would be made against the supplier in the UK and if the manufacturer's insurers wanted to be difficult the cost of a legal battle could be considerable.

 

Either way the S Class bike's rider would have problems as I would imagine it is impossible to insure a vehicle that is not legal in the first place. If insurance was obtained, I cannot imagine the underwriters paying out if there is a possibility of wriggling out of it.

 

Agreed on both points you make David, though the chance of a quality German sourced S bike having a manufacturing fault that caused an accident is slight, the risk is there as you say.

 

The only chance of an owner getting insurance is the registration route of course. Unfortunately the single vehicle type approval that an owner has to use doesn't create a precedent, every owner would have to jump through the same hoops individually.

as I have said before we would like to sell them if there is a way through this maze!

 

 

Simples

 

Register.. tax.. insure.. driving license, big helmet