I echo JimB's thanks but not his choices

Also - I had some butties in the car.

 

Also a personal thanks to GaRRy for letting me see and ride his bikes - cheers mate.

 

I did a 7 mile hike over the hills before and went up the hill (on the bike) 4.5 times.

When I get some time I'll post my thoughts.

 

Taff

I also would like to thank KD. ( Kudos Dave ) for organising the event , far more bikes there than what I expected but Kudos Ibex not there ( courier mishap apparently) .

 

Great to meet a few of the members .. we were there v. early

 

Tried 3 of the bikes on display

 

Raleigh Dover 3 speed ... with Panasonic Crank drive 36V. a very pleasant simple to ride bike ideal for pottering around

 

Kudos x2 new style Tornado and Arriba ..... both impressive mountain style bikes with good components , the Tornado had a rather abrupt speed cut-off which dimmed my enjoyment of the bike ( I'm sure "adjustable" !!!) , the Arriba for me was the sweeter ride its just a shame no Ibex was present .

Anyone from Redbridge last weekend able to give a direct comparison between the Kudos Ibex and the Woosh Sirocco CD ? I know the motors are the same and the Ibex spec. is a little higher ( but so is the price)

 

Anyway thanks again KD.

Was the Kudos Ibex actually at Redbridge?

 

I thought I read someone post that it didn't turn up there, either.

 

I just hope it's at Eden next weekend....

 

I'll post from site , early, if it is & you can all come down for the weekend - Nice caravan/camping sites all around Eden

Whilst I look at the actual bike climb at Manifold, if anyone wants to have an idea what this area looks like, feel free to look at my photos online at:

Panoramio - Photos by Taff Wrexham > best

 

If you want to look at any photos specifically, use the tags button.

Taff

 

PS if anyone wants a GPX file of this walk let me know.

Edited April 14, 201313 yr by Taff

Yesterday at Manifold I tested 4 bikes - links at the bottom.

1 KTM eRace 650 (Torque Sensor) Panasonic Rear Hub Drive

2 KUDOS Arriba (Torque Sensor) 8Fun Rear Hub Drive

3 KTM Macina Race 29 (Speed Sensor)

4 KTM Macina Bold 26 (Speed Sensor)

 

Assumptions/Facts

I wanted to test the bikes under the conditions under which I might use them i.e. knackered.

Thus I did a 7 mile hike first including 700m of ascent.

On the bike I carried 2 full water bottles with me.

I weigh about 14.5 stone.

On each ride I approached the hill with no assist on.

The route was 2.61 miles from the Tea Rooms up to Wetton and back with a 20 second ish stop at the top. The hill is about 10-11% no more through the majority of the climb; the average through the climb is about 7.5%.

 

Comments:

1 KTM eRace 650 (Torque Sensor) Panasonic Rear Hub Drive

Terrific bike, torque sensor was magnificent and gave a very smooth ride. Beautiful gear changes and lovely smooth rolling along without assist. With assist coped with the hill easily and an enjoyable climb. Very enjoyable descent max speed 39.44mph w/out pushing brakes were excellent.

Ride Link: Cyclemeter - Cycle - Apr 13, 2013, 11:59 AM

 

Comments:

2 KUDOS Arriba (Torque Sensor) 8Fun Rear Hub Drive

Good bike, torque sensor was solid but a bit lively when setting off. Gave a smooth ride but it seemed to me that the motor kept cutting out for a micro-second every now and then. Good gear changes and smooth rolling along without assist. With assist coped with the hill easily and an enjoyable climb apart from the glitches mentioned earlier. Very enjoyable descent max speed 33.58mph w/out pushing brakes were good but I was wary of them - hence a slower descent.

Ride Link: Cyclemeter - Cycle - Apr 13, 2013, 12:20 PM

(Note the drop in speed at around 1.35 miles.

 

Comments:

3 KTM Macina Race 29 (Speed Sensor)

4 KTM Macina Bold 26 (Speed Sensor)

Both of these bikes had a centremotor and both road superbly along the flat with/without assist but I couldn't cope with the hill at all; coming to a standstill both times.

 

SUMMARY

1 What I have learned is that a Torque Sensor is perfect for my 'thrashing around the gears' type riding and that a Speed Sensor is no good for me. That's not a criticism of the 2 bikes above in anyway at all; more a case of what suits me.

2 It seems to me there is a premium to pay for overall quality esp. components and ride - what a punter has to decide is can they afford it; or do they want to afford it.

I would be happy with either of the first 2 bikes but I would definitely pay the premium for the KTM eRace.

3 It is essential to test ride bikes - I could hear people stating their preferences after riding and they didn't seem to be thinking like me; so it goes to show it's personal preference.

4 Now I need to look at other bikes with Torque Sensors but at this moment in time my choice is down to 3:

BH Emotion Neo Cross

Storck Raddar

KTM eRace 650

Which is where I think I started out...

All of these are Torque Sensor and all are rear hub drive.

If anyone can tell me the relative assist levels of these 3 bikes (on maximum settings) I'd be grateful.

 

Hope this is of help to anyone and if you've any questions please post them.

 

TAFF

 

PS - You can use this link and the little orange man to 'virtual cycle' through the route.

https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?client=safari&oe=UTF-8&ie=UTF-8&gl=uk&daddr=Butterton,+Staffordshire&saddr=Wetton,+Staffordshire&panel=1&f=d&fb=1&dirflg=d&geocode=KbtXKrq_PHpIMS6n2lTESErK%3BKSXdwMJ6PHpIMZuS-VlwkX5e

 

BIKE LINKS

1 eRace P650

2 .: Kudos Cycles - e-bikes with style :.

3 Macina Race 29/26

4 Macina Bold 26"

Edited April 14, 201313 yr by Taff

Hi Taff

 

Have to say I love the KTM Panasonic hub drive bikes we have the eTour in stock at the moment. The maximum assistance is 400%. Not sure about other two bikes assistance though think Neo's maximum assistance is 300%. Although we do not stock them I am a fan of the Neo.

 

Your experience mirrors what a lot of our customers often feel when they try the premium bikes I like x but love ....

 

Have fun finding your perfect bike!

 

David

Edited April 14, 201313 yr by Electrifying Cycles

Comments:

3 KTM Macina Race 29 (Speed Sensor)

4 KTM Macina Bold 26 (Speed Sensor)

Both of these bikes had a centremotor and both road superbly along the flat with/without assist but I couldn't cope with the hill at all; coming to a standstill both times.

 

SUMMARY

1 What I have learned is that a Torque Sensor is perfect for my 'thrashing around the gears' type riding and that a Speed Sensor is no good for me. That's not a criticism of the 2 bikes above in anyway at all; more a case of what suits me.

2 It seems to me there is a premium to pay for overall quality esp. components and ride - what a punter has to decide is can they afford it; or do they want to afford it.

I would be happy with either of the first 2 bikes but I would definitely pay the premium for the KTM eRace.

3 It is essential to test ride bikes - I could hear people stating their preferences after riding and they didn't seem to be thinking like me; so it goes to show it's personal preference.

Something's not right. Both the Macina Race and Macina Bold use torque sensors, not speed sensors. Also, I'm a lot heavier than you and probably less fit, but I've had no trouble climbing any 10% hill on any Bosch-motored bike. Did you have the power turned down?

 

Whether you have a torque sensor or speed sensor, it makes little difference to climbing ability. In theory, speed sensors would give more power because the power is continuous, while as some torque sensored bikes give power in direct relation to your pedal pressure, which makes the power pulse/surge; however, the Bosch motors in the KTMs don't suffer from that.

 

Climbing ability depends on motor torque, and each motor is different, although Bosch motors are nearly all the same.

 

The glitching you noticed on the Kudos was probably the power switching on and off as you passed the 15mph speed limit. I also found that the torque sensor in the Kudos wasn't very smooth. It was more like a switch and worked like a speed sensor.

Thanks to all who attended the Manifold Trail event. I thought the numbers who attended were just perfect,it gave everyone an opportunity to ride alomost any bike without any undue delay for a specific bike,great to put names to faces off the forum.

The local people,Jeanette at the tea rooms, Nicola at the Old Vicarage B&B(lovely place) and all the staff at the Olde Royal Oak pub(great food) were so supportive.

I think the venue worked really well,the hill up to Wetton was a good test and the Manifold Trail offered an easy ride to those new to ebikes.I think this could easily become our northern ebike event for future years,I know some would like us to go further north but this is quite a haul up from Kent.

As regards the feedback on bikes,the end result was a bit confusing. Some really liked the Kudos Arriba,some liked the KTM erace 650 and some liked the KTM Macina Bold. Bikes sold at the show were the Kudos Cobra,Kudos Liberty and the Kudos Secret,the lady who bought the Secret was surprised at its hill climbing ability. It is obvious that crank drive will not dominate in the future,there are many who prefer hub drive,it recognises that us suppliers do have to offer a variety of bike systems and styles.

KudosDave

I nearly came to a standstill on the Bold despite changing down through the gears and ramping the assist up to max until I remembered reading here about hub gears refusing to change down under load.

 

A brief hesitation in pedalling of course allowed an immediate change down whereupon the bike went off up the hill like a rocket with me, fortunately still on it.

 

Whilst I was chatting halfway up the hill two ladies were struggling up the hill on another pair of Kudos machines (I forgot to ask them if they were aware of the gear change 'thing') but in turn they both took a turn on the Bold for the rest of the hill. I explained the gear change requirement, now being an expert, but put the bike in first gear. The both were almost left behind by the bike as it literally took off up the hill.

 

I believe both were impressed and I know they took it out afterwards for a full trial.

 

I understood that this bike had a torque sensor BTW.

 

I didn't notice any glitching but as a raw beginner I was maybe too immersed in other things to notice.

 

JimB

Edited April 14, 201313 yr by JimB

Something's not right. Both the Macina Race and Macina Bold use torque sensors, not speed sensors. Also, I'm a lot heavier than you and probably less fit, but I've had no trouble climbing any 10% hill on any Bosch-motored bike. Did you have the power turned down?

 

According to the Kudos guys they were speed sensors... certainly I didn't feel any 'torque sensing' going on! Power was on OK and I put it to max so as to be a fair test between all 4 bikes.

 

Whether you have a torque sensor or speed sensor, it makes little difference to climbing ability.

 

I agree - which is why I didn't fault the bikes but my style of riding. They didn't work for me.

 

The glitching you noticed on the Kudos was probably the power switching on and off as you passed the 15mph speed limit.

 

Could well be that actually - perhaps the KTM eRace 650 didn't have the cut off as low as that didn't cut out at all.

 

Ummm - quite interesting.

 

Comments:

3 KTM Macina Race 29 (Speed Sensor)

4 KTM Macina Bold 26 (Speed Sensor)

Both of these bikes had a centremotor and both road superbly along the flat with/without assist but I couldn't cope with the hill at all; coming to a standstill both times.

 

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I'm confused, which isn't a rare event. Are you saying the crank drive bikes couldn't go up the hill but the hub drive bikes did?

 

I was SOOO looking forward to buying a crank drive and conquering a few hills. Although my hub drive Kudos has never been beaten yet.

I nearly came to a standstill on the Bold despite changing down through the gears and ramping the assist up to max until I remembered reading here about hub gears refusing to change down under load.

 

That might explain the Macina Bold Jim but not the other one as well.

Shame really as I was really looking forward to comparing these bikes. Still the KTM eRace 650 made up for it.

 

I understood that this bike had a torque sensor BTW.

 

Which bike Jim the Bold or the bike the ladies had?

 

Perhaps Kudos Dave can confirm what sensor was on these bikes.

I'm confused, which isn't a rare event. Are you saying the crank drive bikes couldn't go up the hill but the hub drive bikes did?

 

NO.

 

I'm saying that they didn't go up the hill for ME. Maybe there is a technique to use I don't know but both came to a halt. The other 2 bikes and a Neo Extreme had no problem.

 

 

I was SOOO looking forward to buying a crank drive and conquering a few hills. Although my hub drive Kudos has never been beaten yet.

 

The only way you'll know is to test ride one.

I nearly came to a standstill on the Bold despite changing down through the gears and ramping the assist up to max until I remembered reading here about hub gears refusing to change down under load.

 

A brief hesitation in pedalling of course allowed an immediate change down whereupon the bike went off up the hill like a rocket with me, fortunately still on it.

 

That caught me out too, but I had no trouble at all climbing the steeper road to Wetton at the next road crossing south on the trail. I even stopped to chat to a bloke pushing his mountain bike up the hill, and just set off again and was quickly back up through the gears going up.

 

Electric bikes can be very deceptive, I felt held back at times on the bikes, but jumping on my none-electric bike soon made me realise how strong the wind had gotten in the bottom.

 

I had thought the Bosch would have been more powerful, it's very subtle. With a bit more speed I'd be happy with a Bosch, but perhaps not with the Macina Bold as the bike.

That might explain the Macina Bold Jim but not the other one as well.

Shame really as I was really looking forward to comparing these bikes. Still the KTM eRace 650 made up for it.

.

 

Wasn't the Race the 11-speed Alfine one? I didn't pay too much attention once I'd realised it would be difficult to fit mudguards to one.

 

Macina 29"

Wasn't the Race the 11-speed Alfine one? I didn't pay too much attention once I'd realised it would be difficult to fit mudguards to one.

 

Macina 29"

 

 

No - that's a different bike. This one was Deore XT 9.

...............I had thought the Bosch would have been more powerful, it's very subtle. With a bit more speed I'd be happy with a Bosch, but perhaps not with the Macina Bold as the bike.

 

I agree with you although bike style choice is a very personal thing - however I'm looking strongly at other KTM Bosch bikes and my favourite remains the Macina HS 400 which has SRAM Dual Drive 8F gears (8 derailleur plus 3 in the rear hub = 24 total).

 

('KD's price list shows this with Shimano Deore LX 9-speed but maybe that's not the same bike I've been looking at.)

 

Taff - I was referring to the Bold having a torque sensor only because that's what I thought I had been told at the time but faced with so many bikes it's easy for confusion to set in.

 

I can't for the life of me see any reference to that in the KTM listing;

 

KTM Bikes // Bikes vom Besten!

 

This one's in German which doesn't help me much;

 

KTM e-Bikes 2013

 

JimB

That caught me out too...

So do you think it's a 'technique' type thing?

Did you think it was a 'torque/sped sensor' bike?

 

...but I had no trouble at all climbing the steeper road to Wetton at the next road crossing south on the trail.

 

Just done the maths on that one and actually both hills are very, similar.

Second hill is 7% average but if you take out the continuous ascent and calculate that it's 10.7%.

 

Electric bikes can be very deceptive, I felt held back at times on the bikes, but jumping on my none-electric bike soon made me realise how strong the wind had gotten in the bottom.

 

I know what you mean:)

According to the Kudos guys they were speed sensors... certainly I didn't feel any 'torque sensing' going on! Power was on OK and I put it to max so as to be a fair test between all 4 bikes.

Never believe salesmen. Many of them don't have a clue.

 

Whether you have a speed sensor or torque sensor, how the power is handled depends on algorithms in the controller. Most are very smooth and have ramps to smooth out transitions. The Bosch bikes ramp down the power when you get to the 15mph speed limit, so you don''t feel any transition, and they ramp it up when you start pedalling. Other bikes like the Kudos Ariba have a much shorter ramp (if any), and simply switch off when you get to the speed limit, so you feel it, and until you're used to it, it feels like a faulty connection is cutting power. You can avoid this by increasing the speed limit in the LCD display up to 40kph to where the motor power ramps down more naturally. The new Woosh Sorocco CD is the same - and many others.

 

I think JIMB has the answer to why you stalled out. Crank-drive motors generally don't have as much torque as hub-motors, so you have to change down the gears to get the torque at the back wheel. If you don't change down, they soon stall out - just like what would happen without an electric motor. For a 10% hill, I have to go down to first gear with a Bosch motor. Hub-motors make the same torque regardless of which gear you're in.

 

To be correct, the Bosch motors have both torque and speed sensors.

I think JIMB has the answer to why you stalled out. Crank-drive motors generally don't have as much torque as hub-motors, so you have to change down the gears to get the torque at the back wheel. If you don't change down, they soon stall out - just like what would happen without an electric motor. For a 10% hill, I have to go down to first gear with a Bosch motor. Hub-motors make the same torque regardless of which gear you're in.

 

You're absolutely right. I didn't say that because I thought I would be talking rubbish but the motor did almost come to a full stop - I initially thought the battery had gone until the light bulb lit up in my head - an increasingly rare occurrence!

 

JimB

So do you think it's a 'technique' type thing?

Did you think it was a 'torque/sped sensor' bike?

 

I think it was probably just the gears not changing, I have an 8-speed nexus, and a slight pause allows a change, actually it just needs a very slight lift of pressure. The Bosch needs a longer full pause to change. I think I would get used to slower gear changes.

 

 

Just done the maths on that one and actually both hills are very, similar.

Second hill is 7% average but if you take out the continuous ascent and calculate that it's 10.7%.

 

Ah, after I'd posted I hoped no one would be able to check :o it was less steep than I had remembered. I did the Butterton Climb on a Kudos with speed sensor, it felt quite lively, noisier and coped OK, reminded me of my Cyclamatic folder.

Never believe salesmen. Many of them don't have a clue.

 

Cool.

 

I think JIMB has the answer to why you stalled out. Crank-drive motors generally don't have as much torque as hub-motors, so you have to change down the gears to get the torque at the back wheel. If you don't change down, they soon stall out - just like what would happen without an electric motor. For a 10% hill, I have to go down to first gear with a Bosch motor. Hub-motors make the same torque regardless of which gear you're in.

 

I can accept this but I'm certain I would have dropped the gears - it's the obvious thing to do.

 

I'm not an inexperienced rider in as much as I am often in the granny gear on my current MTB (which has almost identical cassette and chainring sizes) whilst climbing any hills around me. For example a short rise near me is 14% and I can struggle up that.

 

To be correct, the Bosch motors have both torque and speed sensors.

I never felt the 'bite' as I did with the other 3 bikes. Strange one this.

I think it was probably just the gears not changing, I have an 8-speed nexus, and a slight pause allows a change, actually it just needs a very slight lift of pressure. The Bosch needs a longer full pause to change. I think I would get used to slower gear changes.

 

I think it'll most likely be hub drive for me.

 

 

Ah, after I'd posted I hoped no one would be able to check :o it was less steep than I had remembered. I did the Butterton Climb on a Kudos with speed sensor, it felt quite lively, noisier and coped OK, reminded me of my Cyclamatic folder.

 

Ha ha - gotcha.

Wasn't the Race the 11-speed Alfine one? I didn't pay too much attention once I'd realised it would be difficult to fit mudguards to one.

 

Macina 29"

 

Wouldn't worry too much about that - these may well fit (at worst with a bit of trimming) - they're specifically designed to be compatible with bikes which have a front suspension fork, and either 26" or 28" (i.e. 29" to all intents and purposes) even if there's no attachment point on the front fork - you just use 2 cable ties.

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000X5ZK66/ref=asc_df_B000X5ZK6612816122?smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&tag=hydra0b-21&linkCode=asn&creative=22206&creativeASIN=B000X5ZK66&hvpos=1o2&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=11324805931285465459&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=

Cool.

 

 

 

I can accept this but I'm certain I would have dropped the gears - it's the obvious thing to do.

 

I'm not an inexperienced rider in as much as I am often in the granny gear on my current MTB (which has almost identical cassette and chainring sizes) whilst climbing any hills around me. For example a short rise near me is 14% and I can struggle up that.

 

 

I never felt the 'bite' as I did with the other 3 bikes. Strange one this.

If you went on the Others first, they couldv'e lulled you into a false sense of security. The torque from their motors will drag you up regardless of pedal speed or gears. Maybe you were expecting the others to be the same , but the power would've just kept decreasing in the higher gear.

 

You still have a bit of misunderstanding about the sensors. All they do is send a signal to the controller to tell it that something's happening. It's the controller software that decides how much "bite" to give. the programmers can make it how they want: soft start or instant full power, or any other way. The more time and effort they put into it, the smoother everything works. The cheaper ones tend to have power on or off when the sensor (torque or speed) senses that you're pedalling. When you have a high-powered bike, you can notice the difference in software a lot more.