Hi there,

 

I just wanted to wave my hand here quickly and see if anyone can shed some light on a discussion we've had internally at our company.

 

For those that are more clued up on the details of the law concerning the rated power restrictions, would you say that having a 500W motor restricted to 250W (through mere software) would still be road-legal?

 

We keep being asked by customers for a conversion kit that can be de-restricted, and our answer is always that there isn't much of a point to develop such a feature (as a 250W motor will go flat out at around 16-17mph anyway).

 

However, if we were to have a 500W motor and develop a software for it that has two modes, namely a 250W mode and a 500W mode, and install this software in our LCD Display. I.e. users would easily be able to switch between the two modes depending on the terrain they're on. Do you think we would then be able to market this motor as a road-legal kit which can also be de-restricted for off-road use?

 

Obviously, we've all heard of restricted motors, but does anyone know whether there is a requirement for a physical/mechanical restriction? Or would the software we're developing be enough?

 

Would much appreciate your input!

My considered opinion is that so long as the rider has no immediate means of switching to the higher power on the road, it's legal.

 

The basis for my interpretation is that such power reductions are used on motorcycles. Take this example quoted from direct.gov:

 

"If the engine power output of the motorcycle has been restricted to fit sub-category A2, the power output of the machine before restriction cannot be more than double that obtained after restriction.

Examples of acceptable restriction are:

 

unrestricted power output 70kW - restricted power output 35kW

unrestricted power output 60kW - restricted power output 30kW

unrestricted power output 50kW - restricted power output 25kW"

 

This power restriction to meet the law is often achieved by strangling the air intake with a restrictor sleeve. Although an owner could remove this, they don't have that control on the road while riding.

 

There were once similar means of limiting new riders, machines with as much as 68 bhp sleeved down to 35 bhp output.

 

So that's your legal precedent which should adequately show intent to observe the law as well as observing it physically.

.

Edited August 30, 201312 yr by flecc

That's a very interesting way of putting it flecc, food for thought indeed..

So in your opinion, having a handlebar switch or a quick mode-change on the LCD is a bit dodgy..

 

What would you say if we were to code the LCD to make the mode-switching slightly more difficult for the user? Perhaps doing it in a way so that the LCD has to be switched off first, then the user needs to enter a set-up mode that requires the use of both hands etc, just so the rider is forced to stop in a safe location, and spend a minute or so re-configuring it to the 500W mode.

Would you take the plunge on doing it this way maybe?

 

Again, your input is highly valued!

what makes the bike legal is the EN15194 certificate and don't assume that a 500W bike will pass the test.

The law in the UK is a mess, but it's a bit clearer in Europe, so if you want to use En15194 as your standard, the motor has to have a nominal rated power of no more than 250W. This means it has to have a manufacturer's label on it that says 250w or less. There's no power restriction. This means that you can fit the "250w" Bafang CST, which is powerful enough for most people, and substantially more so than the normal SWX motors.

 

Our Chinese friends are very obliging. You only have to ask for whatever motor you want to have with a 250w label on it, and you can get it. You should have a word with MXUS, because they manufacture the motors as well as providing very nice kits. The MX01A is a clone of the Bafang CST, and will satisfy those customers that ask for more power. The contact there is Shine Wang. Her email is mxus012@hotmail.com. I met her in China and she's very nice. Say hello to her from me.

That's a very interesting way of putting it flecc, food for thought indeed..

So in your opinion, having a handlebar switch or a quick mode-change on the LCD is a bit dodgy..

 

What would you say if we were to code the LCD to make the mode-switching slightly more difficult for the user? Perhaps doing it in a way so that the LCD has to be switched off first, then the user needs to enter a set-up mode that requires the use of both hands etc, just so the rider is forced to stop in a safe location, and spend a minute or so re-configuring it to the 500W mode.

Would you take the plunge on doing it this way maybe?

 

Again, your input is highly valued!

 

Your first option above is in my opinion illegal since it's a rider control option amounting to a motor vehicle throttle or accelerator equivalent.

 

The change by configuring with a code or set-up mode I believe is legal if the information on doing that is intended to be confined to the factory or importer marketing the bike in the EU including the UK, in other words power set at source. If the information escaped into the consumer environment a supplier would legally be expected to take steps to introduce a new method to prevent the abuse.

 

Therefore this software method can be on shaky grounds for the consumer. Even though it is not illegal to supply over-power machines as long as they are not described as legal e-bikes or pedelecs, this can also affect the supplier through insurance claims against them, since it could be construed as negligent and reckless.

you can build a legal CST bike like kudos do - why bother with a switch?

Thanks trex and D8veh! Yes, the EN15194 is also a good point. I'm wondering how people like BH E-Motion managed their way around the EN15194 with their 350W motor though?

 

But anyway, our intention is really to introduce just the kit instead of a full bike.

 

(D8veh, yes we have dealt with MXUS in the past and we are still doing certain OEM projects with them. Nice people indeed, I haven't met Shine Wang though, maybe next time I pay them a visit

as d8veh said, the power restriction is so lax that it is near non-existent. However, if you have a sticker that says '500W' - no Chinese lab is going to certify your bike. Your problem is a moral one: knowing that you build a 500W bike, how are you going to tell your customers that it is a 250W bike?

BTW, EN15194 is given to the whole bike.

You can have EN15194 motor but there is no point making an EN15194 kit because it cannot be certified. None of the self build bike is street legal but nobody is prosecuted for it.

Edited August 30, 201312 yr by trex

The change by configuring with a code or set-up mode I believe is legal if the information on doing that is intended to be confined to the factory or importer marketing the bike in the EU including the UK, in other words power set at source. If the information escaped into the consumer environment a supplier would legally be expected to take steps to introduce a new method to prevent the abuse.

 

Therefore this software method can be on shaky grounds for the consumer. Even though it is not illegal to supply over-power machines as long as they are not described as legal e-bikes or pedelecs, this can also affect the supplier through insurance claims against them, since it could be construed as negligent and reckless.

 

Yes, that is where we got stuck discussing this project. So what I'm hearing here is even with a specifically developed software to restrict power to the required limit still won't qualify us to describe the kit as a pedelec? For me, the whole idea with this is to make the configuration info widely available so that consumers aren't forced to make a choice between a road-legal kit and an off road kit, they could have the best of both worlds with just one. But if we aren't allowed to share the de-restriction info, then that kinds of defies the point of the product...

You could just make a clip on/off lcd and have one on your road models and one on your off road models and if they happen to be interchangeable with some adverse speed effects then how could you stop them fitting the wrong one in the event the original was damaged/lost/slow?

why do you want to describe it as a pedelec? your customers who want to buy this kit will know what it is capable of, it's their responsibility where they want to ride and how fast they want to ride.

Actually, an idea just came up while brain storming with one of our dealers. What if we integrate a password in the LCD for de-restricting the motor? And this password would only be obtained from us when the customer returns a signed disclaimer stating that this feature will only be used for off-road and at their own risk.

Perhaps this would allow us to market the kit with its dual function and still have a process in place with measures against abuse.

Any thoughts?

why do you want to describe it as a pedelec? your customers who want to buy this kit will know what it is capable of, it's their responsibility where they want to ride and how fast they want to ride.

 

That's true trex, it's common sense, I know. But I think it will appeal to a lot of people if they had the peace of mind that it is road-legal, and yet with the ability to go wild off-road if they wanted to...

Following a meeting between the DfT and industry representatives including BEBA, this is an extract from the statements coming out of that:

 

"Extracts from intentions:

 

The DfT and Police are aware that electric bikes currently sold and used in the UK are fitted with 250W motors, they do not intend to become involved in prosecuting those that sell or ride them. The use of an "Off Road Button" however is strictly forbidden now and is specifically mentioned in documents appertaining to new and existing guidelines."

 

So you can see how absolutist their position is and the need for a cast-iron position regarding any restriction method.

You can do similar to what Burisch do. You could sell the kit with a cheap low power controller (14 amp) that has the pads for the 15mph wires internally soldered. Then sell a decent 30 amp unrestricted controller on its own as a spare part.

I realise the law is unclear about what is legal regarding bikes with an electric motor but I suspect that to use a "non legal" bike it would only be OK on private land with permission of the land owner and not the likes of public access areas such as bridal paths and walkers tracks.

Maybe I'm wrong about this?

I use a legal kit which I'm extremely pleased with and from choice would like more power rather than more speed but only if this could be provided legally.

On one of my recent off road rides I met and chatted to a keen mountain biker who seemed to know a heck of a lot about e-bikes, mid conversation he mentioned that he was an off duty policeman on holiday in the area. If we imagine that the police are unaware about what's going on then think again!

Indeed, many police officers are well informed. Some through their force adopting e-bikes or trialling them, some through their duties as traffic officers.

I have a friend who is on the force.

 

As officers, they haven't had any training on this area; and haven't got the means to test the output.

 

"If you don't stand out like a sore thumb, we won't pull you over"

Dear CycloTricity.

 

When Mr William Whitlock M.P introduced the concept of a power assisted push bike he stressed the use of a small electric motor as the drive mechanism. Now politicians not wanting to find themselves later ridiculed for the inappropriate use of language are very particular in the words that they use and the meaning of them within the context of the subject in hand. An Electric Motor of the type built by that world famous Huddersfield firm Brook Motors consisted of the stationary part ‘the Stator’, the moving part ‘the Rotor’ and the part that was an integral part of the Rotor and the bit that made it all work the Commutator. There is not to my knowledge in the definition of what is an electric motor any mention of ‘Controllers’ or of any other outside devices that are currently used to control output on modern motors. On a basic motor an electric current is sent down the red wire (now brown) does it’s bit and returns to complete the circuit via the black wire (now blue). it was possible knowing the current statistics of Volts and Amps to design a motor to operate within given guidelines of torque and speed. Such a motors output was very easy to rate just send a current of the right rating down the red wire and measure the result. As most electric power assisted bicycles with hub motors have a break in the wire to the motor to assist in wheel removal it would be very easy for the Police at the roadside to put such a machine on a rolling road of the type that cyclists use in training bung the right rated current down the positive wire and measure the result. If the motor ran and exceeded under a slight load 15mph or under a heavier load exceeded 650 Watts peak then it would be illegal. Now you can argue about ‘Controllers’ or any other modern add ons used to control a motors output but the Police aren’t known for being in to arguing.

 

P.S

If the definition of an electric motor as used by Politicians in the creation of Law (the definition will be in Hansard somewhere) has changed then I for one is unaware of it.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Linfitter.

 

P.S

If the definition of an electric motor as used by Politicians in the creation of Law (the definition will be in Hansard somewhere) has changed then I for one is unaware of it.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Linfitter.

 

The UK's EAPC law defined the status 7 years after that speech, which of course has no legal status. The EAPC 1983 regulation 200 watts motor power is defined in the British Standards test BS1727 which defines not just the motor but the battery as well.

 

However, that status is now academic since the DfT have accepted the use of 250 watt e-bikes pending the full introduction of an EU style law revision for the UK, currently intended for 2016. We will in due course also pair that with EN15194 which precisely defines the EU rules on motor power.

 

I have a full copy of William Whitlock's speech as reported in Hansard, together with the responses from the Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Kenneth Marks) and the subsequent exchanges, should that be required.

you can build a legal CST bike like kudos do - why bother with a switch?

 

I don't think Kudos use the same 270rpm CST motors as the 500W-rated ones supplied by BMS Battery. Perhaps they can clarify.

 

You need to run the BMS ones with +/- 30A controllers and big batteries / high discharge ones to get the 'private land performance' (!) Out of interest, wonder what would happen to the Kudos variants in terms of performance if you swapped the controller and battery.

Hi folks!

 

Bringing an old thread back to life here, and am doing so with such great pleasure!

 

What started off as a brainstorming session on this very thread has now been completely developed and fully commercialized! And it is all thanks to the input people participated with here which prompted certain ideas of how to do this.

So I'm thrilled to announce we now have introduced our high powered rear wheel conversion kits!

 

http://www.cyclotricity.com/rear-drive-electric-bike-kit/

 

All kits are restricted to 250W by default of course. But if you get the LCD display, you could enter a code to unlock the full speed/power! Change the code and you'll be back to 250W again

 

This is not the same as a standard de-restriction switch that you get on the handlebar. We've done more research on this matter since the first posts here, and found that flecc is pretty much spot on. An immediate means of de-restricting a kit is questionable under the eyes of the law. But to change the factory software settings is a different matter (as different settings apply to different countries/laws around the world).

 

We will disclose the LCD software codes to customers only against signing our de-restriction terms of use ensuring customers understand the legal implications of de-restricting the kit and that they are prohibited form sharing it or using it on-road at that mode.

 

Ok, enough of the boring bit. The stunning bit is how much of a different ride more power can give! I have to say, the 1000W version is an absolutely exhilarating experience! (Almost becoming an addiction!).

So for the thrill seekers among us (you know who you are!), you don't have to get a powerful kit and be an outcast kept in your private land anymore. If you wish to use your kit sensibly and safely on-road, you can now configure it for such journeys as well!

 

We've kept all prices low inline with the CycloTricty ethos and all supported by a dealership network. Please check us out!

Nice usp and marketing.

I like it.

Even if it's not for me.

It's great to see you new kits. It's getting harder and harder to choose now. I reckon that they'll sell well.

 

There's one thing I don't understand though. When you say that they're restricted to 250w, what does that mean? Is that output or input power? Peak or average?