I know where d8veh is going with the above.

 

I've been on 250w rated EN5194 compliant bikes that have pulled almost 1000 watts from the battery.............................................

Raising the "nobody knows paddle" here.

 

The responses given to the OP's original question are untried and untested in law and until they are they place all the risk on the consumer.

 

Many manufacturers have now developed and are marketing similar bikes.

 

Personally I would be very wary about purchasing one them and advise others not to buy them until the new regulations have been defined.

...

Ok, enough of the boring bit. The stunning bit is how much of a different ride more power can give! I have to say, the 1000W version is an absolutely exhilarating experience! (Almost becoming an addiction!).

...

 

1000W? surely not ...

Have you thought of the probability that the wheel will come off?

1000W? surely not ...

Have you thought of the probability that the wheel will come off?

 

There is thousands of BSO's running around with 1000w motors stuck in them from Ebay, you don't see them littering the road side due to breakages.

 

Having said that its a shady way to sell illegal ebikes.

perhaps we should debate the 'arm race' among manufacturers escalating motor power.

The P hub for example sells on its power.

The BPM sells on its power.

I can sympathize with people buying the P hub or the BPM motor on the basis of need (when they are overweighed and having to cope with big hills, although I think the answer should be an XD motor or a crank drive rather than a big powerful motor) but why a 1000W motor? who needs it? if it's for fun then I am sorry to say, the market is tiny.

1000W? surely not ...

Have you thought of the probability that the wheel will come off?

 

What?

 

I ran 2500 watts through my MAC front motor and it didn't fall off.......................

 

Ok, when I nailed the throttle it left a 10 ft black line on the cycle path, but that's besides the point

 

but why a 1000W motor? who needs it?

 

Who NEEDS a full carbon fibre racing bike? No one. But you see loads of them about.

 

Who needs a car with a 3.8 V6, twin turbo engine? No one. But I see plenty of GTR's about.

 

As for there not being a market for powerful ebikes - I wouldn't be so sure - Alien bikes seemed to sell a few (not sure if sales were the reason they went kaput though) and Xipi still seems to be trading. Also, there is a lot to be said for aiming for a market segment that few others operate in, even if it's a small market.

 

A 50% share of 10% of the market is better than a 5% share of 90% of the market.

Edited July 3, 201411 yr by amigafan2003

Something that occurs to me, is where does this all stand with insurance. It seems they have a Carte Blanche on get outs should any pay outs be required.

Something that occurs to me, is where does this all stand with insurance. It seems they have a Carte Blanche on get outs should any pay outs be required.

 

Whom do you mean by they? The rider or the seller?

 

If it's the rider - then obviously a rider of a non compliant ebike will not be covered by insurance.

 

If it's the seller - well - there's nothing wrong with selling non compliant ebikes as long as they are honest about it, so there shouldn't be any insurance come back on them. Technically, there could be a comeback if the base bike wasn't BS compliant, but they probably are compliant, so again wont be an issue as long as they're selling them with reflectors etc.

 

The only real way to be sure would be to have the scenario tested in court, we'll see if the next 5 years as a magistrate throws any interesting cases up ;-)

 

But we're talking hypotheticals again - and people spend too much time worrying about or debating hypotheticals.

Edited July 3, 201411 yr by amigafan2003

 

The responses given to the OP's original question are untried and untested in law and until they are they place all the risk on the consumer.

 

Many manufacturers have now developed and are marketing similar bikes.

 

EN15194 allows any motor that's rated at 250w by the manufacturer without specifying the method of rating, so if Bafang put a 250w marking on the motor, its allowed. There is a standard for verifying the rating of a motor refereed to in EN15194 but it only tests for over-rating, not under-rating, i.e. if it can run at 250w without overheating or stalling out, it'll pass. This would mean that the bikes with "250w" Bosch motors, Bafang BPm, Bafang CST, Dapu, etc are completely compliant with EN15194 regardless of how much current goes through the motor provided that the manufacturers mark it or show it in a catalogue as 250w.

 

Occasionally, factories get their motors mixed up and fit what appears to be the same motor, but marked 350w. In my interpretation, these bikes are non-compliant, so not EPACs.

 

In the absence of a rating from the manufacturer, there's an acceleration test to verify the power of the motor, so if you or the the manufacturer have restricted the power somehow, the bike would have to pass that test, but my interpretation is that if the motor's marked 500w or 1000w, it's still non-compliant. It would be much better for Cyclotricity if the manufacturer marked the motors 250w, and gave them a certificate to show that it passes EN 60034-1, Rotating electrical machines – Part 1: Rating and performance.

To summarise, I agree with the sentiments of your statements, but there's a fundamental difference between bikes with high power motors that the motor manufacturers say are 250w, and somebody fitting a 1000w motor and trying to convince someone that it's been restricted. You can't restrict a motor to a nominal rating of 250w because that has no precise meaning. Restricting the current to it doesn't change it's "nominal rating".

 

At the moment it still seems that nobody is checking and nobody has been prosecuted. I wonder how long that will go on for. I reckon until they tidy up all the regulations.

I am sure the manufacturers know what they are doing and duly take legal advice. The fact remains that they (the vendors) market their bikes as having more torque (read power) than xyz, so power becomes the main yardstick, a 'weedy' SWX motor that can't climb 7% hill without pedalling is at a distinct disadvantage against this kind of marketing. This is to me inviting more vendors to join the power race and be more liberal with their interpretation of the laws. Instead of investing in R&D and innovate, they just fit a bigger motor for more or less the same cost to them.

Whom do you mean by they? The rider or the seller?

 

If it's the rider - then obviously a rider of a non compliant ebike will not be covered by insurance.

 

If it's the seller - well - there's nothing wrong with selling non compliant ebikes as long as they are honest about it, so there shouldn't be any insurance come back on them. Technically, there could be a comeback if the base bike wasn't BS compliant, but they probably are compliant, so again wont be an issue as long as they're selling them with reflectors etc.

 

The only real way to be sure would be to have the scenario tested in court, we'll see if the next 5 years as a magistrate throws any interesting cases up ;-)

 

But we're talking hypotheticals again - and people spend too much time worrying about or debating hypotheticals.

 

No I'm talking about any insurance companies you insure the bike with. We all know how much work they put into finding ways out of paying up and all these grey areas will be grist to the mill for them.

Depends who's at fault and how serious the accident is I suppose.

 

If it's a "non fault" accident for the rider, then I don't think it will matter as they'll claim costs back from the third party - your insurance company wouldn't be interested in your bike at all and the third party will be trying to settle for the least amount possible. If it's a fault claim for the rider, then that's where it might get more complicated - a simple traffic collision with no serious injuries then I doubt they'll even want to look at the bike. A serious accident with police involvement and the bike being kept for inspection? That's anyone's guess as to how that would turn out.

 

It's a bit of a myth about insurance companies trying to weasel out of their responsibilities - it's often cheaper to settle quickly than it is to dispute claims - which usually requires costly court hearings and/or ombudsman involvement.

 

But again, we're in the realms of speculation and it's a discussion with only one answer - and answer that results in the scenario actually happening and recording the result.

Edited July 3, 201411 yr by amigafan2003

No I'm talking about any insurance companies you insure the bike with. We all know how much work they put into finding ways out of paying up and all these grey areas will be grist to the mill for them.

 

If the electric bike is a non-compliant electric bike, then as far as the insurance companies are concerned it isn't a, "bicycle" and they will say that motor insurance should have been obtained. If no motor insurance is held, then the rider will become personally responsible for funding any compensation due for personal injury to a third party, or damage to property.

 

If the electric bike is legal, you will almost certainly find that home insurance will cover for third party injury and damage to property.

 

Of course, this relies on an accident occurring whereby the legality of the bike being ridden becomes a factor. Some view the scenario as being extremely unlikely to occur and are happy to take the risk.

We've discussed what might or might not happen with a non-compliant bike on several occasions before. I thought that this thread was about whether you could make a non-compliant bike compliant by restricting it somehow. If you can, there's no problem with insurance.

Are these kits based on the MAC motors?

It's too big for a MAC. It looks like a direct drive motor. As all their other motors are from MXUS, I guess it's the XF40

 

http://i01.i.aliimg.com/img/pb/095/334/454/454334095_013.jpg

We've discussed what might or might not happen with a non-compliant bike on several occasions before. I thought that this thread was about whether you could make a non-compliant bike compliant by restricting it somehow. If you can, there's no problem with insurance.

 

shambolic was asking a valid question and it's only polite to answer that question.

It's too big for a MAC. It looks like a direct drive motor. As all their other motors are from MXUS, I guess it's the XF40

 

http://i01.i.aliimg.com/img/pb/095/334/454/454334095_013.jpg

 

Hi d8veh

Just joined yesterday but have been on the site most days looking for pearls of wisdom. Took me a month to decide to convert my giant Talon 2 rather than buy a complete bike. Has now taken another month to decide which kit to go for. Would have definitely gone the BMS battery route if it wasn't for my own ineptitude. I'm actually not that bad with a spanner but ultimately wanted something that was hopefully going to be straightforward. NEARLY ordered an Oxydrive yesterday as the price has currently dropped from £829 to £699.

This morning I fell on this thread about the Cyclotricity rear drive 500W and 1000W kit. The primary reason I will be using the bike is to commute.to work. Only 5 miles each way on the flat along a tarmac trail along the river Taff. All off road. Any of the 250W kits would have been fine for this. However, at the weekend I do get off road into the beautiful Welsh HILLS, hills being the optimum word. This Cyclotricity option of being able to 'restrict' the setup for the commute and then unleashing serious hill climbing potential for the off roady bits at the weekend seemed like a perfect answer. I should have run this by you first really...............but, I was too excited and have ordered the 1000W (in for a penny) with the 48V/11amp frame battery. I may well be in touch for some fitting assistance very soon, although I am hoping Cyclotricity will be there as well should I encounter any problems (have heard good things about there support in the past). I will definitely be putting a post on here once it is up and running to give others some feedback on this new kit. Fingers crossed that the spanner gods are smiling on me!!!

It looks like a direct drive which means as an off roader on steep hills it wont be great as it will require a decent speed not to over heat and to provide decent power, so not good for steep technical stuff, it will also be heavy.