Wikipedia definition...A pedelec is a bicycle where the rider's pedalling is assisted by a small electric motor; thus they are a type of low-powered e-bike. However, unlike some other types of e-bikes, pedelecs are classified as conventional bicycles in many countries by road authorities rather than classified as a type of electric moped. Pedelecs include an electronic controller which stops the motor producing power when the rider is not pedalling or when a certain speed – usually 25 km/h – has been reached. Pedelecs are very useful for people who have to ride in hilly areas or where there are often strong headwinds. A pedelec can be any type of bicycle, but a pedelec city bike is very common. Ordinary conventional bicycles can be converted to pedelecs with the addition of the necessary parts, i.e. motor, battery etc.

 

The most influential definition which defines which e-bikes are pedelecs and which are not, comes from the EU and as such is valid across the whole of Europe. From the EU directive (EN15194 standard) for motor vehicles, a bicycle is considered a pedelec if:

1.the pedal-assist, i.e. the motorised assistance that only engages when the rider is pedalling, cuts out once 25 km/h is reached, and

2.when the motor produces maximum continuous rated power of not more than 250 watts (n.b. the motor can produce more power for short periods, such as when the rider is struggling to get up a steep hill).

 

I recently asked whether members were intending to buy/build a new bike in the new year.

All the postings were from members who intended to build bikes which are clearly not pedelecs within the above definition.

Virtually all recent postings are about bikes which are outside the parameters of EN15194,the problem with this concentration is that readers of the forum may feel alienated if their requirement is for a nice leisure or commuter bike which is legal-the forum seems to have little of interest for them.

I do ask our customers where they originally thought about buying an e-bike,it is very rare that they have viewed the pedelec forum.

The forum is in danger of becoming so focused on such a limited part of the market that it will have little general interest to potential pedelec users.

At it's extreme we have all seen some newby come onto the site who wants a nice ride to work bike and he is assaulted by advertisers who tell him what he needs is a 1500 wattx30mph monster,not surprisingly he goes off confused and disillusioned.

I miss Eddieo for despite his aggressive manner he did input such good knowledge of the German market which must have been invaluable to customers looking towards buying from that location.

Shame,IMHO,the forum has lost it's way.

KudosDave

most of the 30,000 or so people who are going to buy a pedelec next year don't even know that themselves.

If you ask the regular posters what they project for 2014, then the answers will tend to be just as you described, simply because we've all built legal bikes in the past so we are not going to do that again.

I don't see any reason to change the name except that it would be easier to find if it were called "The Electric Bike Forum".

 

Those that said they were going to build a new bike are already forum members, who already have electric bikes. It's logical that they'd want something more and spend time discussing it. Most people build a normal legal bike for their first project. These guys are not yet members. They normally join when they get serious about building something, and then order the stuff very shortly after, so your findings don't surprise me at all.

 

The forum is divided into several sections. If there's more postings about non-compliant stuff than compliant, it's because that's where the interest is. Changing the name won't alter that. If you take away the bit of the forum that's focused on non-compliant bikes, which you say is the majority of posts, it won't mysteriously fill up with people who are are interested in your bikes, it'll just stay empty, and then nobody will visit because there won't be enough activity, so it'll probably go down-hill.

 

You need to find ideas to attract more people to the forum, not push people away.

 

Eddieos posts were great sometimes. Other times they were very destructive. How would you like it if he chose your brand for his personal vendetta like he did with Storck? Apart from that there's forum rules, which he refused to comply with. Don't forget that he was warned several times, banned, reinstated and warned several times again before he was banned. If we could have the good side of him back, it would be great, but you know that it only comes with the bad side, which I don't want to see back again.

eddieo's posts were mainly predictable and sometimes contradictory. The bikes he bought were good value for money but not particularly brilliant.

Trex.....what would make a bike 'brilliant'?

KudosDave

recently, I visited a very big e-bike shop with about 150 models on display.

They are practically all very good products - mostly German bikes but I would not want to buy any because they are not faster nor ligher than what I ride and I only paid £500 for my BBS01 kit. Sacko's new project looks brilliant, on your other thread.

In my opinion for what it is worth, if a name change were deemed necessary, I would agree with D8veh's suggestion, but the forum does not need be steered in any one particular direction and I don't agree that it has lost it's way.

 

The definition of forum is "a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular subject can be exchanged".

 

From what I see, that is exactly what it does and just because I may not agree with someone else's or share their opinions, does not mean that I am right and they are wrong.

 

Trex.....what would make a bike 'brilliant'?

KudosDave

It's easier to say what wouldn't, like a 20" folding bike that doesn't, or a bike that you boast to the world and recommend to everyone else knowing that they can't have one because it'll never be sold in Europe with or without a giant dildo sticking out from the seat-post.

It would be a start if the forum implemented its own rules with fairness and consistency.

 

I have reported several posts via the facility provided to do so and never even get a response - Probably don't want to upset the advertisers who have openly stated on here to the effect that he who pays the piper ..........

Trex.....what would make a bike 'brilliant'?

KudosDave

 

 

ebikes are compromises - you will probably have to design your own frame.

recently, I visited a very big e-bike shop with about 150 models on display.

They are practically all very good products - mostly German bikes but I would not want to buy any because they are not faster nor ligher than what I ride and I only paid £500 for my BBS01 kit. Sacko's new project looks brilliant, on your other thread.

 

 

Trex...I visited one of the Stromer dealers in Switzerland,it was like an aircraft terminal in size,there are similar in Germany and Belgium....I would love to build such a shop for e-bikes in the UK but aside from the size of the market our business rates are 10 times Germany and Belgium,it's a massive overhead that few would want to attract,in this business climate.

I suppose I led you into the obvious answer,for that I apologise, but is it possible to build a 'brilliant' pedelec that is also EN15194 legal????

KudosDave

of course you can. Most pedelec buyers do not want to ride faster than legal speed unless they pedal hard. For me, a brilliant bike must make you feel younger and totally forget that you are riding assisted!

Edited December 10, 201312 yr by trex

Perhaps the forum would benefit from a little less pontification by trade members and observation of the rules, myself included, yes we pay for advertising, but we don't own the forum.

 

One last thing from me for tonight, can we please have a restriction on the number of members called Dave?

I don't think the subject of the pedelecs name should be considered before the new regulations come into force. We know that the DfT will be broadly conforming to the EU regulations and it is by no means certain that they will allow throttles on new bikes. Personally I don't think they will, so we could be left with pedelecs only in future as in Europe.

 

Historically we have always been more restrictive legally than other countries, and this has been true of e-bikes too. For example our unique 14 years minimum age, our original 12 mph assist speed limit and our 200 watts limit. Leopards don't change their spots.

are you saying that youngsters under 14 can ride e-bikes elsewhere in the EU? I didn't know that.

of course you can. Most pedelec buyers do not want to ride faster than legal speed unless they pedal along.

 

Unfortunately that is just not true,our experience is that at least 50% of pedelec buyers want to derestrict the bike above the 15.5 mph limit,although 20mph is considered ok. Some 30% of buyers don't want to pedal and would happily ride round using the pedals as footrests, using just the throttle.

The German market is the largest outside China and no German e-bike is built as standard to satisfy either of the above requirements.

Kudos has 4 new bikes en-ship at the moment,too early for spec and photos. Within the limitations of EN15194 I think they are exciting and dynamic bikes but they are not plus 500 watt motors so I suppose they are not 'brilliant'.

KudosDave

are you saying that youngsters under 14 can ride e-bikes elsewhere in the EU? I didn't know that.

 

Yes, the lower age limit is unique to the UK. Since pedelecs are limited to cycle speeds and youngsters cycle, there is no logic to a lower age limit. We didn't have the lower age limit when the assist speed was restricted to 12 mph, it was introduced when the speed was increased to 15 mph.

 

Of course for most the cost is a limiter.

.

Edited December 10, 201312 yr by flecc

Unfortunately that is just not true,our experience is that at least 50% of pedelec buyers want to derestrict the bike above the 15.5 mph limit,although 20mph is considered ok. Some 30% of buyers don't want to pedal and would happily ride round using the pedals as footrests, using just the throttle.

The German market is the largest outside China and no German e-bike is built as standard to satisfy either of the above requirements.

Kudos has 4 new bikes en-ship at the moment,too early for spec and photos. Within the limitations of EN15194 I think they are exciting and dynamic bikes but they are not plus 500 watt motors so I suppose they are not 'brilliant'.

KudosDave

 

 

I woudn't pay much attention to the volume of sales of s-pedelecs or people who want to derestrict their bikes. You should worry more about the downward trend of the price of German pedelecs. Three months ago, German pedelecs were mostly 1,999 Euros. Now bike shops are full of 1,299 Euro bikes. Where does that leave Chinese made bikes?

You would have thought that the shops discount older models but this is only partially true.

When eddieo bought his new bike (last month), he was quite smug about getting a good deal.

Not if he could wait a couple more weeks! I suspect that Bosch continue to supply the old model all the way until they can catch up with demand on the new model - forcing dealers to over order.

Big trouble ahead.

Edited December 10, 201312 yr by trex

I found this forum by accident, looking for information on ebike kits; I certainly didn't search using the term 'pedelec'. From that point of view alone, I would say that changing the name to 'Electric Bike Forum' or similar makes sense.

As for suggesting that most posts are about non EN compliant bikes; I don't agree. There are many posts asking for advice on problems with off the shelf bikes, as well as people looking to improve their bike, and very often still looking to stay legal (increased range, or the various threads on lighting options, for example).

There is a specific part of the forum for non compliant bikes. Some issues seem to 'bleed' into the main forum occasionally, but most follow the rules.

The biggest bugbear for me is the way one ot two traders pounce like vultures as soon as someone asks for advice with regard to a particular project, or about a particular model or configuration of bike; very often they ignore the fact that the OP has mentioned a particular specification (say, "I want a front hub drive with 10aH battery for £800"), and jump in with "I can build a Saturn V rear hub nutmangler with 300tG of dilithium boost - give me a call", or "Come and see our vast array of overpriced crank driven bikes". That's not traders being helpful - it's spam, pure and simple.

Most people who use ebikes do just that - they use their bike as a tool. If it breaks, they may resort to the internet and find this forum, and if they're lucky, they find a fix, or at least good advice about where to go for a fix. After that, they don't look here again. It's only sad nerds like me who use it as a place of worship:o (Actually, I keep coming back because I enjoy most of the craic)

Trex....never worry it does one's health no good!

There are some crazy prices around at the moment,we have bikes down to around £500-£600 in our sale to clear room for 2014 models. I suspect that the euro 1299 bikes are not those that are attractive,if they are genuine bargains the deals will dissappear in the spring,for that is the pattern of all of the bike trade.

Our London Electric Bike dealer is a good monitor of the UK marketplace in a very prosperous part of the UK,despite offering top of the range Haibike,KTM and BH e-bikes the market still wants bikes around £1000.00 or less,these sell 10:1 against £2k bikes.

The quality of the chinese product is improving all the time...unless Wisper have changed their mind I understand that they are returning back to China for 2014 production,I think that is common knowledge.

My main concern is that the e-bike business was showing all the signs of take-off in the spring/summer of 2013 but these recent deaths of cyclists in London has made many wary of buying a bike of any type...Boris needs to make cycling safer.

KudosDave

I am always wary of changing a name. Remember Consignia?

I guess to most people, a Pedelec is self explanatory.

Most non-users will not realise that it applies to a particular method of operating an ebike.

Prospective buyers who are internet savvy will find this site and educate themselves.

Finally, I found Eddie insufferable with his, 'I can afford the best, all Chinese made stuff is rubbish, your Torano is a Turdano.'

He was illogical, partisan re German products (I suspected that either he was German or paid) and grossly offensive.

Trex....never worry it does one's health no good!

There are some crazy prices around at the moment,we have bikes down to around £500-£600 in our sale to clear room for 2014 models. I suspect that the euro 1299 bikes are not those that are attractive,if they are genuine bargains the deals will dissappear in the spring,for that is the pattern of all of the bike trade.

Our London Electric Bike dealer is a good monitor of the UK marketplace in a very prosperous part of the UK,despite offering top of the range Haibike,KTM and BH e-bikes the market still wants bikes around £1000.00 or less,these sell 10:1 against £2k bikes.

The quality of the chinese product is improving all the time...unless Wisper have changed their mind I understand that they are returning back to China for 2014 production,I think that is common knowledge.

My main concern is that the e-bike business was showing all the signs of take-off in the spring/summer of 2013 but these recent deaths of cyclists in London has made many wary of buying a bike of any type...Boris needs to make cycling safer.

KudosDave

 

 

I beg to differ - German e-bike shops are full of cheap Bulls, Raleigh's and Rixe's besides Kalkhoffs being deeply discounted, 30% is the norm, some are even half priced (I saw a Bulls s-pedelec at 1,699 Euros). Some shops discounted so deeply that they can't put the price on their web sites.

The problem may be that Bosch can no longer be absolutely certain that Chinese bikes won't snap at their heels, then decide to use their rationing of the new motor as a pretext to cut the price of the old model. By the way, I thought you own the LEBC shop?

Edited December 11, 201312 yr by trex

I am always wary of changing a name. Remember Consignia?

I guess to most people, a Pedelec is self explanatory.

Most non-users will not realise that it applies to a particular method of operating an ebike.

Prospective buyers who are internet savvy will find this site and educate themselves.

Finally, I found Eddie insufferable with his, 'I can afford the best, all Chinese made stuff is rubbish, your Torano is a Turdano.'

He was illogical, partisan re German products (I suspected that either he was German or paid) and grossly offensive.

 

well, he hasn't bought the best - he bought VFM German bikes, not the best German bikes.

Cant help but think that Electric Bike Forum would help people find the site. The rest I would leave alone, it works so does not need fixing.

most of the 30,000 or so people who are going to buy a pedelec next year don't even know that themselves.

If you ask the regular posters what they project for 2014, then the answers will tend to be just as you described, simply because we've all built legal bikes in the past so we are not going to do that again.

I must be the odd one out then, I built/modified a couple of illegall bikes quite a few years ago and have since built/modified several legal ones and have zero interest in owning or building illegal bikes.