There is an override outside, but the pilot in the cockpit can delay it five minutes, this for anti-hijacking reasons. Having an immediate override would just increase hijackings again, some like 9/11 with suicidal intent.

 

I'm afraid this is a "between devil and deep blue sea" situation, there is no foolproof answer.

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this video from Airbus shows that if the cockpit is video monitored by the crew or airlines or traffic controller, a lot of attacks could be better dealt with.

 

All Airbus planes have fly by wire capability. It can't be too difficult to disable access to the computer from the airlines HQ or gas the nutter who locks himself in.

 

 

But despite this most pilots would choose to do nothing else,it is still one of the most respected vocations.

KudosDave

 

And yet on long-haul it is perhaps the most boring job on earth, endless hours on autopilot with virtually nothing to do.

 

Jim Zockoll, the founder of Dynorod was a Pan Am pilot and dreamed up that business while flying, following a blocked drain incident at the hotel he stopped at between flights. Following that he used flight time to dream up further successful enterprises.

 

It's certainly not an ideal occupation for someone with any worries or depression, all that free time to brood.

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There is an override outside, but the pilot in the cockpit can delay it five minutes, this for anti-hijacking reasons. Having an immediate override would just increase hijackings again, some like 9/11 with suicidal intent.

 

I'm afraid this is a "between devil and deep blue sea" situation, there is no foolproof answer.

.

 

Agreed,whatever security is introduced there will be pros/cons but I firmly believe that another person in the cockpit may have prevented both MH370 and this Lufthansa crash. These pilots are actually quite isolated when the cockpit door is closed and the presence of another in the cockpit may remove that lone feeling,it is rare for 2 people to want to commit suicide at the same time and the cabin crew is also aware of the number of people the other side of the cockpit door.

At worst they may fight over the door unlock button.

KudosDave

And yet on long-haul it is perhaps the most boring job on earth, endless hours on autopilot with virtually nothing to do.

 

Jim Zockoll, the founder of Dynorod was a Pan Am pilot and dreamed up that business while flying, following a blocked drain incident at the hotel he stopped at between flights. Following that he used flight time to dream up further successful enterprises.

 

It's certainly not an ideal occupation for someone with any worries or depression, all that free time to brood.

.

 

Tony..I agree on long haul..but not short haul,the cruise mode may be only 30 per cent of the flight and in Europe there is constant comms,don't forget the turn round time of a low cost flight is 25 minutes.

KudosDave

All Airbus planes have fly by wire capability. It can't be too difficult to disable access to the computer from the airlines HQ or gas the nutter who locks himself in.

 

Certainly such things are possible, but also far too dangerous to implement. Both would make remote terrorist attack possible, given that there is no such thing as perfect security.

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Agreed,whatever security is introduced there will be pros/cons but I firmly believe that another person in the cockpit may have prevented both MH370 and this Lufthansa crash.

 

Of course we used to have three in the cockpit, which was much more secure. The third person was the flight engineer, a post done away with for economy reasons.

 

There is still a third seat in there on many planes, indeed my sister who was an airline employee often used to do her personal travelling in that seat since she knew many of the pilots. One of them is now her partner.

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Great thread!

 

Perhaps there needs to be a re-appraisal of the air marshall role on aircraft?

 

I can imagine a situation where a non-uniformed air marshall equipped with low velocity firearm or tazer and immobilising gas spray is able to unlock the cabin door with his key and resolve the issue. An inundation port in the door to facilitate knockout gas wouldn't necessarily work as the pilot can breathe from his oxygen mask.

 

Too costly for budget airlines? Well, how do you value maybe 200, 300 or more human beings flying from one place to another?

 

Tom

Yes, air marshals can be a good solution, Israeli airline El Al has an armed air marshall on every flight without fail, and they've successfully prevented hijacking attempts.

 

Not perfect of course, what happens if the air marshall goes nuts with his gun, he's human too?

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a little while ago:

Germanwings crash: How to guard against the threat from pilots?

The threat from people we trust is a lot more real than from terrorism.

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/03/27/europe/france-germanwings-plane-crash-pilot-threat/index.html

It's transpired that the co-pilot had been hiding a serious depressive illness and was actually signed off work on the day of the flight. He had torn the sick note to shreds which were found in his apartment and gone to work anyway, and apparently that wasn't the first time he'd done that. It was also revealed that as a result of his depression he'd been recommended for regular psychological assessment.

 

Obviously depression had been the cause of suicide in this case.

 

At first sight it would appear that Lufthansa could be in very serious legal and financial trouble over this disaster.

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Obviously depression had been the cause of suicide in this case.

 

It's just as well all those feeling suicidal don't resolve to take out loads of their fellow human beings when they go and become mass murderers as we'd all be in trouble!

 

Tom

True Tom, probably an illustration of the way different personalities react to their depression. Some wishing to quietly opt out, others with anger at their lot. The problem with suicide is that it provides an opportunity to "get even", to avenge a perhaps long held perceived wrong, without any risk of retribution for the act.

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It's transpired that the co-pilot had been hiding a serious depressive illness and was actually signed off work on the day of the flight. He had torn the sick note to shreds which were found in his apartment and gone to work anyway, and apparently that wasn't the first time he'd done that. It was also revealed that as a result of his depression he'd been recommended for regular psychological assessment.

 

Obviously depression had been the cause of suicide in this case.

 

At first sight it would appear that Lufthansa could be in very serious legal and financial trouble over this disaster.

.

 

Wow.that is truly awful,they should have had internal systems that prevented him from flying. Surely if he ignored the sick notes he should have been dismissed.

Lufthansa will only employ German speaking cadets,even though the language of the skies is English.

That CEO has a lot of awkward questions to answer.

KudosDave

Great thread!

 

Perhaps there needs to be a re-appraisal of the air marshall role on aircraft?

 

I can imagine a situation where a non-uniformed air marshall equipped with low velocity firearm or tazer and immobilising gas spray is able to unlock the cabin door with his key and resolve the issue. An inundation port in the door to facilitate knockout gas wouldn't necessarily work as the pilot can breathe from his oxygen mask.

 

Too costly for budget airlines? Well, how do you value maybe 200, 300 or more human beings flying from one place to another?

 

Tom

 

Tom,the pilots have their own seperate oxygen supply system remote from the rest of the aircraft and back up cylinders,thats probably relevant to MH370.

If the guy is determined to kill himself he only needs to push the stick forwards but the 2 in the cockpit rule just gives an opportunity for another person to discuss his problem.

I think the door system works very well you just need a human being to be able to overide the system,but that overide has to come from the cockpit.

I have many friends who are pilots,all of them are the most level headed guys you can meet,but who hasnt had black periods in their lives.

KudosDave

Reflecting on this situation, I actually feel sorry for Lufthansa. Their policy of having German national recruiting, though discriminatory is sensible, given that German workers are famed for their diligence and serious attitude to duty.

 

The airline also has an excellent safety record and has the maximum ranking seven star safety rating. Unfortunately though there is a trap in this situation, since management tends to react to needs. With no apparent problem and everything going so well over a sustained period, there is a natural tendency to leave well alone on the principle "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

 

In such an environment it's all too easy to miss an odd rogue who is skilfully making every effort to conceal his situation, as Andreas Lubnitz was doing. After all, it seems even his captain who sat alongside him day after day for hours on end hadn't perceived anything untoward.

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The latest development is that German Wings have asked London Undergound to remove all their current adverts from the tube trains.

 

Entirely understandable, since the adverts bear this message

 

German Wings

 

Prepare to be surprised

 

It could not be a more unfortunate message, troubles piled upon troubles for this unhappy airline.

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Thank goodness the cockpit voice recording makes it obvious that the captain was blameless. Imagine the frustration of not being able to get back through that locked door knowing the plane was flying him to his death.

But at least his reputation remains untarnished, without the CVR there would have always been some doubt as to who was responsible.

I wish that they would stop publizising the co-pilot's name and actions and focus more on telling all who the captain was and his efforts to try and save his passengers and crew. :-(

Reflecting on this situation, I actually feel sorry for Lufthansa. Their policy of having German national recruiting, though discriminatory is sensible, given that German workers are famed for their diligence and serious attitude to duty.

 

The airline also has an excellent safety record and has the maximum ranking seven star safety rating. Unfortunately though there is a trap in this situation, since management tends to react to needs. With no apparent problem and everything going so well over a sustained period, there is a natural tendency to leave well alone on the principle "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

 

In such an environment it's all too easy to miss an odd rogue who is skilfully making every effort to conceal his situation, as Andreas Lubnitz was doing. After all, it seems even his captain who sat alongside him day after day for hours on end hadn't perceived anything untoward.

.

 

Flecc....Düsseldorf is a large hub for Lufthansa,unless German Wings have different rostering procedures to say Easyjet or Ryanair it is unlikely that a co-pilot and captain will fly together on consecutive days. I have friends who fly Ryanair out of Stansted the captain and co-pilot may go a whole year and never meet again,even a small base they may be weeks apart.

I think that is intentional.

Flecc....Düsseldorf is a large hub for Lufthansa,unless German Wings have different rostering procedures to say Easyjet or Ryanair it is unlikely that a co-pilot and captain will fly together on consecutive days. I have friends who fly Ryanair out of Stansted the captain and co-pilot may go a whole year and never meet again,even a small base they may be weeks apart.

I think that is intentional.

 

I did wonder about that Dave. In this case it might not have been such a good idea if rotation was the practice, since a regular pairing even if only for a week at a time might have exposed some questionable aspects of behaviour.

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Rosters are drawn up so that a pairing of the same captain and first officer occurs as infrequently as possible. When you work with a comparative stranger, you have a tendency to adhere to operating procedures more closely and are less likely to shortcut them.

I have to say that I blame the CAA more than this co-pilot,who was clearly mentally ill.A great proportion of the fatalities over the last year have been due to suicide or possible suicide of a pilot. In some cases there is a question over the cause of the crashes but surely if there is a possibility of suicide and in most cases that is the most logical conclusion then we should spend similar efforts to overcome that we currently spend on preventing terrorism.

The co-pilot who flew out of Somalia who hijacked his own jet,scheduled for Rome but he diverted to Geneva and demanded political asylum,he locked the captain out of the cockpit. He safely landed the plane,but that event should have alerted the CAA to the risks involved,that guy could have crashed his plane just as this pilot has done.

Ok they have announced a 2 in the cockpit rule now,but if they had done so previously they may have saved a lot of lives.

The CAA had all the info available to them,the FAA and IAA smelt the coffee and responded quickly but it has overtones of 'shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted'.

Bring back flight engineers and bus conductors...

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7176545.stm

We could insist on having 3 pilots. Would not add much to the cost of a ticket.

We could insist on having 3 pilots. Would not add much to the cost of a ticket.

 

Mike,the jump seat in the cockpit is a small fold down seat,ok for occasional use but not suitable for every flight. The 2 pilot seems ok,they maybe should work less hours,2 sectors (flights) per day is enough.

Maybe the doctor of a pilot should by law inform the airline if there is any reason why a pilot should not be flying due to medical reasons...I don't think any pilot would object to that. Such an inform would be very rare it cannot be much of a cost penalty to either the doctor or the airline but so important in that rare situation.

Just common sense really.

KudosDave