Col,

 

I understand the situation perfectly well.

 

 

Clearly not I'm afraid... which is emphasised by this single point.

 

 

There is no compulsory insurance for cyclists.

 

If you're riding an sPedelec, or a dongled eBike, its not a cycle, its a motorbike, so insurance IS compulsory, you're just choosing to ignore that law.

 

There were a lot of accidents involving bicycles in 2013.

 

http://www.rospa.com/roadsafety/adviceandinformation/cycling/facts-figures.aspx

 

Cyclist Casualties, 2013

Child Adult All

Killed 6 103 109

Seriously Injured 276 2,867 3,143

Slightly Injured 1,676 14,510 16,186

Total 1,958 17,480 19,438

 

what % of these do you think involved eBikes? The answer is VERY small. The % of eBikes involved in these accidents will grow, and all we're worried about is the actions of the few breaking the law now, resulting in a high profile accident that causes the currently very relaxed eBike regulations to be tightened up. ie any bike with a motor is classed as a motorbike and has to have insurance and tax etc etc. Can you imagine what that would do the to eBike industry?

 

and saying, "well if I was in a crash I'd just pull the dongle out is ridiculous really". If someones insurance company came after you, they be a bit more vigorous than that, and if there is even a hint that you're riding an illegal vehicle, they will find out.

 

I appreciate you think we're just worried about loosing sales... but we're not - ask any KTM dealer - we're already selling out of 2015 bikes. What we're worried about customers not understanding the risks and their liability, and us loosing an entire business stream, before it even really kicks off.

Col,

 

What do you think the insurance company 'coming after me' is going to do? Put me in prison? Shoot me?

 

If I crash into someone/something my liability is just that.

 

Say I scrape the wing of someone's car.

 

I'm down for the paint repair - a fixed sum - it's not more just because I'm riding an ebike, dongled ebike, or a ruddy horse come to that.

 

Same as if I knock someone over, their injury is what it is.

 

Some personal injury claims can be high, but too many people confuse personal injury with the Lottery sums paid out in medical negligence cases.

 

On its own, a broken arm or leg is worth very little - hundreds usually.

 

That's partly why you rarely hear of a cyclist being sued, that and being hit by a bike rarely results in anything more than scuffed coat.

 

The ingredients for the catastrophe scenario you keep on promoting are just not there.

 

'Sales' and 'entire business stream' may have different meanings in marketing school, but they come to the same thing around here.

Clearly not I'm afraid... which is emphasised by this single point.

 

 

 

If you're riding an sPedelec, or a dongled eBike, its not a cycle, its a motorbike, so insurance IS compulsory, you're just choosing to ignore that law.

 

There were a lot of accidents involving bicycles in 2013.

 

http://www.rospa.com/roadsafety/adviceandinformation/cycling/facts-figures.aspx

 

Cyclist Casualties, 2013

Child Adult All

Killed 6 103 109

Seriously Injured 276 2,867 3,143

Slightly Injured 1,676 14,510 16,186

Total 1,958 17,480 19,438

 

what % of these do you think involved eBikes? The answer is VERY small. The % of eBikes involved in these accidents will grow, and all we're worried about is the actions of the few breaking the law now, resulting in a high profile accident that causes the currently very relaxed eBike regulations to be tightened up. ie any bike with a motor is classed as a motorbike and has to have insurance and tax etc etc. Can you imagine what that would do the to eBike industry?

 

and saying, "well if I was in a crash I'd just pull the dongle out is ridiculous really". If someones insurance company came after you, they be a bit more vigorous than that, and if there is even a hint that you're riding an illegal vehicle, they will find out.

 

I appreciate you think we're just worried about loosing sales... but we're not - ask any KTM dealer - we're already selling out of 2015 bikes. What we're worried about customers not understanding the risks and their liability, and us loosing an entire business stream, before it even really kicks off.

i wonder if we could have a break down, in percentage, between those forumites who, a - enjoy reading this thread, b - feel it makes them actively consider self harm, and c - feel like riding a dongled bike into a tree at high speed for having to re-read the same stuff yet again. I think we are all, now, truly, cognizant with all of these arguments.

RobF.

I don't think that it is scaremongering. It is a fair statement of the law.

If an ebike injures a pedestrian, then those 'No win, no fee' lawyers may take the case on.

Damages could be huge, plus all the legal costs.

Insurance companies will not 'redraw' the claim. They will simply refuse to pay. The court will award damages against you, not the Insurance company, who in normal cases will pick up the bill

If they refuse, what are you going to do?

You could try suing them, but your assertion,

But the company would have to show the dongle played a part in the accident.

Is just not so. In fact it has nothing to do with it. The Insurance company would simply tell the court that the bike involved in the accident was not the one they insured in that they insured a legal bike, the bike involved was not legal even if it was only doing 10mph

Col,

 

What do you think the insurance company 'coming after me' is going to do? Put me in prison? Shoot me?

 

If I crash into someone/something my liability is just that.

 

Say I scrape the wing of someone's car.

 

I'm down for the paint repair - a fixed sum - it's not more just because I'm riding an ebike, dongled ebike, or a ruddy horse come to that.

 

Same as if I knock someone over, their injury is what it is.

 

Some personal injury claims can be high, but too many people confuse personal injury with the Lottery sums paid out in medical negligence cases.

 

On its own, a broken arm or leg is worth very little - hundreds usually.

 

That's partly why you rarely hear of a cyclist being sued, that and being hit by a bike rarely results in anything more than scuffed coat.

 

The ingredients for the catastrophe scenario you keep on promoting are just not there.

 

'Sales' and 'entire business stream' may have different meanings in marketing school, but they come to the same thing around here.

 

Rob, you clearly don't understand the law, liability or anything you're debating. So Id suggest actually speaking to others who KNOW how it works and then coming back on here.

 

Liabilty, does not stop with you, if you're involved in an accident riding an illegal vehicle on the roads, if you've been sold the parts by someone who knew you didn't have access to a private estate on which to ride said bike.

 

How much do you think the fixed sum will be if the person involved in the accident has to have a period off work, or is god forbid paralysed? You really seem to be taking risks blindly. Which is 100% the reason we keep coming back to this debate on here. Because those of you who are pro-riding illegal bikes on the whole don't seem to really understand your case.

 

I'd be happy to agree or open up to any ideas you have that are correct, but some of your statements are way off I'm afraid, and others reading this need to know that.

 

Cyclists get sued all the time!!! The fact you don't know about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I have insurance for this reason because I cycle on the roads all the time. My club also insist on having it before we can ride as a group.

 

On its own, a broken arm or leg is worth very little - hundreds usually.

 

From my experience of motorcycle accidents I usually lay down in the road mumbling "kerching!"

 

Examples of compensation amounts for your arm injury claim

 

1. Minor arm injury claim

If you suffer soft tissue injuries (muscles damage) and a simple fracture or broken bone in the forearm or upper arm - either the ulna, radius or humerus - and such fracture heals quickly with no ongoing problems: up to £4,200

2. Fractured forearm or upper arm with ongoing symptoms

If it takes some time for your broken arm to heal and you have some ongoing pain, but only to a small degree, you can expect your arm injury claim to be worth between: £4,200 - £12,3000

3. Arm injury with ongoing disability

If your arm injury heals, but leaves some significant symptoms, but these symptoms still allow your arm to function: £12,300 - £25,000

 

Even for a hardly noticable 0.5 cm friction burn scar on my shin under my leathers I recieved £1000 compensation after getting hit side on by a car at a junction.

From my experience of motorcycle accidents I usually lay down in the road mumbling "kerching!"

 

Examples of compensation amounts for your arm injury claim

 

1. Minor arm injury claim

If you suffer soft tissue injuries (muscles damage) and a simple fracture or broken bone in the forearm or upper arm - either the ulna, radius or humerus - and such fracture heals quickly with no ongoing problems: up to £4,200

2. Fractured forearm or upper arm with ongoing symptoms

If it takes some time for your broken arm to heal and you have some ongoing pain, but only to a small degree, you can expect your arm injury claim to be worth between: £4,200 - £12,3000

3. Arm injury with ongoing disability

If your arm injury heals, but leaves some significant symptoms, but these symptoms still allow your arm to function: £12,300 - £25,000

 

Even for a hardly noticable 0.5 cm friction burn scar on my shin under my leathers I recieved £1000 compensation after getting hit side on by a car at a junction.

 

I don't doubt any of the above.

 

But none of these sums change depending on whether the injury is caused by a bike, ebike, dongled ebike or anything else for that matter.

 

Many - I would say most - cyclists ride uninsured, so they are taking those risks personally.

 

The reason they are content to do that is because they know that if they ride responsibly, it is vanishingly unlikely they will be on the wrong end of a major claim.

Rob, you clearly don't understand the law, liability or anything you're debating. So Id suggest actually speaking to others who KNOW how it works and then coming back on here.

 

Liabilty, does not stop with you, if you're involved in an accident riding an illegal vehicle on the roads, if you've been sold the parts by someone who knew you didn't have access to a private estate on which to ride said bike.

 

How much do you think the fixed sum will be if the person involved in the accident has to have a period off work, or is god forbid paralysed? You really seem to be taking risks blindly. Which is 100% the reason we keep coming back to this debate on here. Because those of you who are pro-riding illegal bikes on the whole don't seem to really understand your case.

 

I'd be happy to agree or open up to any ideas you have that are correct, but some of your statements are way off I'm afraid, and others reading this need to know that.

 

Cyclists get sued all the time!!! The fact you don't know about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I have insurance for this reason because I cycle on the roads all the time. My club also insist on having it before we can ride as a group.

 

Col,

 

Cyclists get sued all the time do they?

 

Let's have some examples, should be dead easy, you are in the trade and it happens all the time.

 

I've done thousands of miles and never hit anyone, let alone come close to causing injury or serious injury.

 

You've done more miles than me, I think, how many people have you clouted?

 

I resent being patted on the head and told I don't understand by someone who has a big axe to grind and a long history of scaremongering.

 

People can make up their own minds/do their own research.

I don't doubt any of the above.

 

But none of these sums change depending on whether the injury is caused by a bike, ebike, dongled ebike or anything else for that matter.

 

Many - I would say most - cyclists ride uninsured, so they are taking those risks personally.

 

The reason they are content to do that is because they know that if they ride responsibly, it is vanishingly unlikely they will be on the wrong end of a major claim.

 

RobF.... please tell me what you're basing these sweeping statements on? Have you had any formal legal training, or done any research to give you this confidence?

 

Because. If you're involved in an accident and you're on a vehicle that isn't considered safe to be used on UK roads... of course its going to have an impact on your liability. It'll mean that even if you were the victim in the accident, you'll will become the cause. So you could go from being injured and your life insurance company sueing to cover your medical costs... and then finding yourself being the cause, because your bike shouldn't have been on the road. So your insurance company will have no case and you'll be liablel for all costs personally.

 

Plus you'll loose your driving license because you'll get 12 points straight off for driving an illegal vehicle, no tax, no insurance etc etc.

 

Buy, hey ho, I'm just scaremongering (or as I prefer to think of it - understanding what I'm doing when I take a vehicle onto the roads!)

RobF.

I don't think that it is scaremongering. It is a fair statement of the law.

If an ebike injures a pedestrian, then those 'No win, no fee' lawyers may take the case on.

Damages could be huge, plus all the legal costs.

Insurance companies will not 'redraw' the claim. They will simply refuse to pay. The court will award damages against you, not the Insurance company, who in normal cases will pick up the bill

If they refuse, what are you going to do?

You could try suing them, but your assertion,

But the company would have to show the dongle played a part in the accident.

Is just not so. In fact it has nothing to do with it. The Insurance company would simply tell the court that the bike involved in the accident was not the one they insured in that they insured a legal bike, the bike involved was not legal even if it was only doing 10mph

 

Mike,

 

Insurance companies do need to show the error/omission on the proposal contributed to the claim before they can redraw.

 

Plenty of examples of insurance companies having to pay a theft claim on a car that's been modded without their knowledge.

 

As regards 'no win no fee' lawyers, they are only interested if there's some meat on the claim.

 

Do you think there's a big risk of causing substantial injury to a pedestrian by riding an ebike?

 

Experience tells me there is a very low risk of causing such an injury, which there would need to be for your doomsday scenario to kick in.

 

And if, like many cyclists, you ride uninsured, it doesn't really matter what you are riding because any claim is down to you anyway.

Col,

 

Cyclists get sued all the time do they?

 

Let's have some examples, should be dead easy, you are in the trade and it happens all the time.

 

I've done thousands of miles and never hit anyone, let alone come close to causing injury or serious injury.

 

You've done more miles than me, I think, how many people have you clouted?

 

I resent being patted on the head and told I don't understand by someone who has a big axe to grind and a long history of scaremongering.

 

People can make up their own minds/do their own research.

 

2 seconds on google, and I get to the British Cycling Page, which shows the Third Party insurance they offer for members.

 

http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/membership/article/memst-Third-Party-Liability-Insurance-0

 

----------

 

Third Party Liability Insurance - the details

 

If you are involved in an incident causing injury or property damage that was (or is alleged to have been) your fault your insurance cover may indemnify you in respect of the legal costs of defending a third party claim and any resulting damages awarded against you. Cover is up to a limit of £10 million and British Cycling will pay any insurance excess that applies.

 

Just a quick email to say many many thanks to British Cycling and the underwriters for dealing with this, the whole process has been completely hassle-free with only minimum contact needed.

 

Andrew Wilson

 

--------

 

So there is one example - a Mr Andrew Wilson, found within 20 seconds.

 

It does happen, just because it hasn't happened to you yet, doesn't mean it wont., or it won't happen to someone else.

If you're involved in an accident and you're on a vehicle that isn't considered safe to be used on UK roads... of course its going to have an impact on your liability. )

 

If I break a pedestrian's leg, his damages claim is the same, no matter what I am riding when I did it.

 

The claim could be substantial, but he is not off work for longer/has longer term injuries, just because I am riding a dongled ebike.

2 seconds on google, and I get to the British Cycling Page, which shows the Third Party insurance they offer for members.

 

http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/membership/article/memst-Third-Party-Liability-Insurance-0

 

----------

 

Third Party Liability Insurance - the details

 

If you are involved in an incident causing injury or property damage that was (or is alleged to have been) your fault your insurance cover may indemnify you in respect of the legal costs of defending a third party claim and any resulting damages awarded against you. Cover is up to a limit of £10 million and British Cycling will pay any insurance excess that applies.

 

Just a quick email to say many many thanks to British Cycling and the underwriters for dealing with this, the whole process has been completely hassle-free with only minimum contact needed.

 

Andrew Wilson

 

--------

 

So there is one example - a Mr Andrew Wilson, found within 20 seconds.

 

It does happen, just because it hasn't happened to you yet, doesn't mean it wont., or it won't happen to someone else.

 

Of course, we've no idea what the underwriters dealt with on behalf of Andrew Wilson.

 

From what I can gather, most cyclists sign up for British Cycling or CTC insurance for access to the legal helpline after some clot motorist wipes them out and refuses to pay.

 

That scenario, sadly, is much more likely.

Of course, we've no idea what the underwriters dealt with on behalf of Andrew Wilson.

 

From what I can gather, most cyclists sign up for British Cycling or CTC insurance for access to the legal helpline after some clot motorist wipes them out and refuses to pay.

 

That scenario, sadly, is much more likely.

 

ok... so you asked for an example - I gave you one, but now you've raised another point, which you are saying is much more likely.

 

So lets say you're that cyclist who has been wiped out by the clot motorist and they are refusing to pay your legal and medical bills. Do you really think the fact your riding an sPedelec is going to help your case? Because we've checked, and you'll go from being the victim to the cause, so you'll be liable for the any damage to the vehicle, the accompanying whiplash case from the driver, and your own costs, which can be quite high. Oh and you'll loose your driving licence as you'll probably get reported for using an illegal vehicle on the road.

 

But as this time its you who said "much more likely" is it it you whose scaremongering

 

I've got no problem with people taking their own risk... but its upsetting when so many don't seem to understanding what they are risking.

For 30 years I have reversed my cars and campervans out of my winding drive with no trouble.

Last week in the dark and rain, I scraped the gatepost.

Likelihood=very low indeed,

yet misfortune chose to strike.

ok... so you asked for an example - I gave you one, but now you've raised another point, which you are saying is much more likely.

 

So lets say you're that cyclist who has been wiped out by the clot motorist and they are refusing to pay your legal and medical bills. Do you really think the fact your riding an sPedelec is going to help your case? Because we've checked, and you'll go from being the victim to the cause, so you'll be liable for the any damage to the vehicle, the accompanying whiplash case from the driver, and your own costs, which can be quite high. Oh and you'll loose your driving licence as you'll probably get reported for using an illegal vehicle on the road.

 

But as this time its you who said "much more likely" is it it you whose scaremongering

 

I've got no problem with people taking their own risk... but its upsetting when so many don't seem to understanding what they are risking.

 

Practically, the chances of liability being reversed are very low, not least because the dongle will likely be never seen or be smashed/lost in all the kerfuffle.

 

As d8 posted, a wise dongle owner might whip the thing off in the aftermath if the opportunity arose.

 

Even if it remains, there are still many humps for the other party to get over.

 

Someone needs to ask the question - why would they?

 

Did the dongle contribute to the accident?

 

Was the dongle working?

 

Hook wriggling you might say, but the battery on mine went flat and I did several (uneventful) journeys with it not working.

 

I did a couple more with the sodding thing in my pocket while I was trying to find a new battery.

 

So it could have been lying in the road among the other debris after an accident, probably with me rolling around on top of it.

 

Again practically, investigations are not that thorough in the case of a routine bump.

 

You may know more than me, but assessors are rarely sent to look at the bike to check the damage, the insurance company will meet the claim - or not - on the strength of their reading of liability from the accident report and some bike shop quotes.

So,

The grand finale is:-

Are you honest or dishonest

Do you care if a fellow citizen is cheated out of compensation rightfully theirs?

Practically, the chances of liability being reversed are very low, not least because the dongle will likely be never seen or be smashed/lost in all the kerfuffle.

 

As d8 posted, a wise dongle owner might whip the thing off in the aftermath if the opportunity arose.

 

Even if it remains, there are still many humps for the other party to get over.

 

Someone needs to ask the question - why would they?

 

Did the dongle contribute to the accident?

 

Was the dongle working?

 

Hook wriggling you might say, but the battery on mine went flat and I did several (uneventful) journeys with it not working.

 

I did a couple more with the sodding thing in my pocket while I was trying to find a new battery.

 

So it could have been lying in the road among the other debris after an accident, probably with me rolling around on top of it.

 

Again practically, investigations are not that thorough in the case of a routine bump.

 

You may know more than me, but assessors are rarely sent to look at the bike to check the damage, the insurance company will meet the claim - or not - on the strength of their reading of liability from the accident report and some bike shop quotes.

 

ok, you seem happy to live in a world of assumption and guess work to give you the comfort you need. Good luck with that.

 

Because .... the crucial thing you're STILL missing is.

 

 

Someone needs to ask the question - why would they?

 

Because they are an insurance company, and its their job to get out of paying the xThousand pounds of medical bills for their client if they can, and pass the cost onto someone else.

 

AND - the point you need to realise, which is crucial.

 

Did the dongle contribute to the accident?

 

IT DOESN'T MATTER. The bike shouldn't be on the road. It only takes the argument that had you not had the dongle, you'd have been slower and therefore not in the place where the accident happened at the time it happened, to hopefully prove to you that it does contribute to any accident. If you're on an illegal vehicle, it being the cause doesn't matter one bit, it shouldn't be there, and its your choice to ignore the law to register and insure it.

 

What would your defence be? I took a risk and hoped my lord? I was informed, but I told the company warning me that they were scaremongering.

 

Think of it like drink driving... if you were involved in an accident, even if it wasn't your fault and you were over the limit - you loose all legs you have to stand on legally.

So,

The grand finale is:-

Are you honest or dishonest

Do you care if a fellow citizen is cheated out of compensation rightfully theirs?

 

That with the addition of .... "are you feeling lucky?"

 

Because it will just be a matter of bad luck or good luck to see if your the first person in the UK who is the test case for this kind of thing.

...

Think of it like drink driving... if you were involved in an accident, even if it wasn't your fault and you were over the limit - you loose all legs you have to stand on legally.

now that's scaremongering. If it wasn't your fault then you are entitled to compensation. Drunken or not is a matter for mitigation, not for the perpetrator to wriggle out of his liability. If I run over a guy on an illegal bike, I don't expect to get away with it.

if your the first person in the UK who is the test case for this kind of thing.

 

So you accept your doomsday scenario has yet to happen?

 

I agree, it probably has not, although we can never be certain about that.

 

The reason it hasn't happened is because it is vanishingly unlikely.

 

Your risk as a retailer is entirely different.

 

You may have noticed I have not commented about that, it's your business and you have made your decision.

 

Equally, the ebike user has to assess the risk from their point of view.

now that's scaremongering. If it wasn't your fault then you are entitled to compensation. Drunken or not is a matter for mitigation, not for the perpetrator to wriggle out of his liability. If I run over a guy on an illegal bike, I don't expect to get away with it.

 

it was an example. I clearly wasn't saying riding a bike with a dongle is as bad as drink driving. The law isn't that simple, and I'm afraid its not even up to the police to decide really who is responsible as far as liability goes.

 

 

If you ran over a guys on an illegal bike, you wouldn't "get away with it" you could still be done for dangerous driving or any number of things things. The liability for the costs of the accident are what we're talking about here and that would be argued between insurance companies. If one party in the accident was found to be on a vehicle that is not certified as safe on the UK roads... you'll find its a pretty clear case.

 

If you doubt me, check.

So you accept your doomsday scenario has yet to happen?

 

I agree, it probably has not, although we can never be certain about that.

 

The reason it hasn't happened is because it is vanishingly unlikely.

 

Your risk as a retailer is entirely different.

 

You may have noticed I have not commented about that, it's your business and you have made your decision.

 

Equally, the ebike user has to assess the risk from their point of view.

 

Yes, I've never argued that it has happened yet have I? I've said since day 1 that it hasn't happened, but an accident involving a powerful eBike is inevitable. It will happen, the seriousness of the accident is the debatable bit, and the bit that anyone riding an illegal eBike is chancing their luck on.

 

But I do agree completely with your last point that the user clearly has to assess their own risk.... but what I do feel is that we as a forum and an industry should be educating the public about that risk... and not simply saying "you'll probably never get caught" which seems to be the current approach from those who are pro illegal bikes.

Yes, I've never argued that it has happened yet have I? I've said since day 1 that it hasn't happened, but an accident involving a powerful eBike is inevitable. It will happen, the seriousness of the accident is the debatable bit, and the bit that anyone riding an illegal eBike is chancing their luck on.

 

But I do agree completely with your last point that the user clearly has to assess their own risk.... but what I do feel is that we as a forum and an industry should be educating the public about that risk... and not simply saying "you'll probably never get caught" which seems to be the current approach from those who are pro illegal bikes.

 

I agree with much of what you say - a dongle user needs to know the risks they are running.

 

Where we don't agree is the level of that risk.

 

But, assuming this round of dongle wars has largely run its course, I'd like to mention something else KTM related.

 

I had a go on a KTM 1964 unpowered mountain bike.

 

Top piece of kit, I dunno if the thing just fitted me, but I was well impressed.

 

Good spec, light, and looks the part.

 

Also a thumbs up to Redline, your dealer in Loughborough.

 

Not only were they helpful, but the shop was clean, very professionally KTM branded, and the stock properly displayed.

 

http://www.ktm4u.co.uk/

Here's my new "Fast legal bike"

http://www.epic-cycles.co.uk/images/cann-sc-ultd-15-600.jpg