I think it is highly unlikely that the police will crack down on illegal e-bikes,maybe if the government signs up to EN15194 there may be a brief period of police interest just like the mobile phone crack down,which seems to be almost ignored now,

No the problem is if you had an accident and hurt somebody or hurt yourself,any insurance company will try to wriggle out of paying a claim,injury claims tend to be the big one going through the courts,so they tend to face the greatest scrutiny. An illegal powered bike or an illegal speed setting (dongle!) would be just what an insurance expert witness or barrister would need to suggest that the bike was performing improperly and therefore the claim was wholly or partly rejected.

As a complete aside I am someone who travels around the world a lot and in the past have relied on my credit card travel insurance to cover any accident or illness whilst away. Aviva,the insurers behind the HSBC cards have advised me that 'if I meet a member of the public in the course of my business' my travel insurance is void.....try doing business without meeting another person!!!!!

KudosDave

I expect they mean meeting a member of the public as in selling to them or something similar. I doubt trade people would count as members of the public for that purpose.

I think this makes intersting reading. A 7 week operation in London by 2,500 police officers ending Jan 3 resulted in 4,269 Fixed Penalty Notices

"

1,277 for contravening traffic signals, 1,608 for cycling without lights at night (though many of these were cancelled when cyclists subsequently produced lights) and 1,057 for cycling on a footway."

 

Over 10,000 were issued to motorists over same persiod

 

What did they do this ? it was "in response to a series of cycling deaths across the capital"

 

 

We dont know how many were FPN were canncled but it still amounts to each officer issuing less than 2 FPN each over 7 weeks !!

 

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/over-14000-penalised-by-police-in-london-road-safety-operation-19177

 

draw your own conclusions but mine is this was a political decision to pour police resource into it due to negative publicity over road deaths in London.

 

So few FPN over such a long time period with that many officers on the operation. If anything it seems to say that there are a heck of a lot of law abiding cyclists !

I still can't find any record of anybody ever being prosecuted for having an over-powered or over-speed electric bike!

For whatever reason, the police seem to be keeping clear of that one.

 

The whatever reason now is, I'm sure, the fact that all our police forces have been instructed not to prosecute for having a 250 watt rating when the law says 200 watts.

 

Faced with that obscure instruction, what police officer is going to bother about the complex issue of e-bike power?

 

None, they've been given the excuse for not getting involved and there are far easier things to deal with.

.

Edited January 22, 201511 yr by flecc

I expect they mean meeting a member of the public as in selling to them or something similar. I doubt trade people would count as members of the public for that purpose.

John,I specifically asked Aviva if I am covered if the primary reason for my trip is attending exhibitions-note attending,not exhibiting-they answered that I would not be covered. So for 10 years plus I have been travelling without travel health or accident insurance,I now use a dedicated business travel insurer.

You only find out the small print on insurance proposals when you want to make a claim,fortunately I never had to.

KudosDave

I think this makes intersting reading. A 7 week operation in London by 2,500 police officers ending Jan 3 resulted in 4,269 Fixed Penalty Notices

"

1,277 for contravening traffic signals, 1,608 for cycling without lights at night (though many of these were cancelled when cyclists subsequently produced lights) and 1,057 for cycling on a footway."

That's interesting. There's rather a lot of people riding illegal electric bikes in London, but out of all that activity, none got prosecuted!

draw your own conclusions but mine is this was a political decision to pour police resource into it due to negative publicity over road deaths in London.

 

I remember this well and the Metropolitan Police officially stated reason was that it was in response to the sudden spate of deaths. At the time Conservative Mayor Boris Johnson also spoke about the decision and he has a role in the management of the Metropolitan Police. That would have been the political element since promotion of cycling is very much a government and GLC official policy.

.

You can't blame them. I'd have done the same after all those deaths. Should they just have shrugged their shoulders and hoped that things would be better. As the spate of deaths seems to have stopped, one could argue that they did the right thing and it worked.

 

The one bit I'm not sure about is the riding on the footpath. Surely, no cyclist will get mown down riding on the footpath. Now they only go on the road so are fair game for any motorist on his/her mobile phone.

 

For cycling at night without lights and jumping red lights, they got off lightly with a fixed penalty notice IMHO.

As the spate of deaths seems to have stopped, one could argue that they did the right thing and it worked.

 

Unfortunately the deaths haven't stopped but are not getting as widespread publicity, possibly due to this being considered a stale news story. I had to try two different Google entries to find the link for you to the latest rather than last years links repeated, so even Google seems to be losing interest.

 

The first for London in 2015 was on Tuesday morning the 20th January, as usual in a lorry v cyclist collision. That's easily on target to get to the usual 14 or so annual deaths in London.

 

Link here

.

In respect of the bike that is for sale, It has a few bits added that I assume were the choice of the owner rather than the powers that be.

 

My previously owned trials bikes, just had a day time MOT, and only required a rear brake light, horn, and road legal tyres. My old KTM enduro bike, had a regular MOT, and was fitted with the most basic of lights, horn, and road legal tyres.

 

I assume then that the fitting of lights other than a brake light were of choice, indicators were of choice, and mirrors were of choice.

 

Remove said items, and you aren't really left with much else.

 

It would be interesting to hear direct about what hoops that the guy had to jump through to get the bike registered.

I assume then that the fitting of lights other than a brake light were of choice, indicators were of choice, and mirrors were of choice.

 

Not so I'm afraid Eddie. The required specifications for these items are laid down. For example the head light doesn't have to have a dipped beam but has strict light position, pattern etc requirements. The simplest solution is to adapt a dedicated moped headlight and position it according to the rules.

 

This manual shows all the inspection items, with outlines of the requirements to be met detailed in the annexes.

.

Edited January 22, 201511 yr by flecc

Your points are of course correct, doing this to a pedal bike destroys all the fun and point of having a bicycle. You might aswell just by a moped and be done with it. But this does show what a legal eBike that does over 15.5mph assisted HAS to legally look like.

 

However by adding a dongle to your push bike, you have already turned it into a moped, you've just decided to bypass the law by not having the other features that mopeds are required to have.

 

This is a decision that is up to you as an individual clearly. However the risks will continue to grow as the moped sector of the market is NOT happy about riders like yourself being able to bypass all the laws that their customers are forced to abide by to use their vehicles on the road.

 

So now there is a situation, where the cycle trade and the motorbike trade want this clamped down on. These are two pretty powerful lobby groups who are pressuring the government to act.

 

The increase in awareness of eBikes will I'm afraid mean a clamp down on the use of illegal mopeds on the road.

KTM, I said I'd take a dongle over one of the type advertised.

 

I did not say that I was using a dongle. I said, I'd take a dongle over a home made moped any day. My point is that this guy has been forced to go to great lengths to get a faster legal bike. He has had to convert it into a moped. I am not sure why he has left the pedals on be they can be removed.

 

In contrast the Germans just fit a 350w motor to a production pedelec, remover the speed restriction, apply a few user restrictions and rules then get on with it.

 

As far as our government clamping down on illegal bikes., they can't even stop our elderly freezing to death in the winter. They have no chance on ebikes.

 

It would be interesting to hear direct about what hoops that the guy had to jump through to get the bike registered.

 

If you search his posts on ES, he described the whole process.

KTM, I said I'd take a dongle over one of the type advertised.

 

I did not say that I was using a dongle. I said, I'd take a dongle over a home made moped any day. My point is that this guy has been forced to go to great lengths to get a faster legal bike. He has had to convert it into a moped. I am not sure why he has left the pedals on be they can be removed.

 

Yes, I understand what you're saying... what I was trying to point out... is that if you want to use a dongle legally. You HAVE to do this to your dongled bike.

 

Buy choosing to fit a dongle to an eBike or indeed simply using a sPedelec you've chosen to ride a moped under the current legislation.

 

So the problems of being caught using it on or offroad, or the liability issues of being involved in an accident are just the same to buying a moped, removing the mirrors, lights, plates and riding it with no tax, insurance or MOT.

 

You're all correct, that the chances of being caught are very slim, but as Dave@Kudos has said.... if you're (and I don't mean you personally SRS) riding one regularly you really need to check what risks you're taking, because should you be involved in an accident - the implications are very serious.

So the problems of being caught using it on or offroad, or the liability issues of being involved in an accident are just the same to buying a moped, removing the mirrors, lights, plates and riding it with no tax, insurance or MOT.

 

Actually worse rather than the same, since the dongled e-bike isn't even registered as a motor vehicle!

.

Not so I'm afraid Eddie. The required specifications for these items are laid down. For example the head light doesn't have to have a dipped beam but has strict light position, pattern etc requirements. The simplest solution is to adapt a dedicated moped headlight and position it according to the rules.

 

This manual shows all the inspection items, with outlines of the requirements to be met detailed in the annexes.

.

 

If the owner had just elected to have a daylight only MoT, as EddiePJ mentioned, wouldn't the owner be able to present it minus the headlight, indicators and mirrors? I looked into this several years ago (not ebike related) and thought that what EddiePJ said above was correct.

 

My research was in relation to a motor cycle, so maybe mopeds are different and there is no such thing as a daylight only MoT for a moped?

 

I don't like the look of the legal high speed bike, but I admire the owner for doing his homework and having the skill to build it within the rules.

There may be a daylight MOT available Tillson, but I was replying to Eddie's assumption that any mirrors or lights to the owners choice could be used. That isn't so, hence my correction post.

 

Certainly for the only moped MOT mentioned in the guidance handbook, the full one, those components have strict specifications.

.

If the owner had just elected to have a daylight only MoT, as EddiePJ mentioned, wouldn't the owner be able to present it minus the headlight, indicators and mirrors? I looked into this several years ago (not ebike related) and thought that what EddiePJ said above was correct.

 

My research was in relation to a motor cycle, so maybe mopeds are different and there is no such thing as a daylight only MoT for a moped?

 

I don't like the look of the legal high speed bike, but I admire the owner for doing his homework and having the skill to build it within the rules.

Maybe he needed to ride in the dark to get to work!

Pretty useless not having lights on a motorbike nowadays. Apart from getting caught out in bad visibility most bikers with any sense keep the lights on all the time. I had a street scrambler as they were known well over forty years ago and I used the no lights MOT exemption. It was a Greeves scrambler so there was no way of fitting lights without a lot of hassle. But I think that MOT exception was to allow people to ride their bikes to competitions as many did back then. I don't think it exists anymore either.

I think this bike looks great, you are all worreid about breaking the law but do you all consider that when your in your cars doing 5 mph over the speed limit?

Some of you are even worried about the law changing but i think thats more of a concern for people selling products that dont want to miss out on their payday.

.. if you're (and I don't mean you personally SRS) riding one regularly you really need to check what risks you're taking, because should you be involved in an accident - the implications are very serious.

 

Col,

 

I admire your determination to scaremonger, but that is all you are doing.

 

Have you ever ridden a dongled bike?

 

You post as if a dongle turns a 250W ebike into a Honda Fireblade.

 

If only, all the dongle does is enable a relatively weedy motor, built for torque not speed, to whirr on a bit.

 

And if the implications are very serious, let's have some examples.

 

Of course, there are none.

 

Could be that dozens of dongle bike owners have been hammered by the law without any cases being made public.

 

Or it could be it's never happened.

 

I think it more likely someone with a 1000W dinner plate motor contraption will get into a bit of bother, although once again I can't find any examples.

Col,

 

I admire your determination to scaremonger, but that is all you are doing.

 

Have you ever ridden a dongled bike?

 

You post as if a dongle turns a 250W ebike into a Honda Fireblade.

 

If only, all the dongle does is enable a relatively weedy motor, built for torque not speed, to whirr on a bit.

 

And if the implications are very serious, let's have some examples.

 

Of course, there are none.

 

Could be that dozens of dongle bike owners have been hammered by the law without any cases being made public.

 

Or it could be it's never happened.

 

I think it more likely someone with a 1000W dinner plate motor contraption will get into a bit of bother, although once again I can't find any examples.

 

RobF, I'm not going to argue with you, but I should present some facts for you and others to see. So I am going to point out that I am Director of a business that sells thousands of eBikes into the UK. We work for KTM, who are in a pretty unique position in being a brand name that makes cars, motorbikes, eMotorbikes, eBikes and push bikes. We are members of BEBA, the Bicycle Association and many other trade only groups and forums in the cycle and motorcycle world. We sell bikes to pedal bike, eBike and motorbike shops. We also work closely with our local police force, we supplied them with bikes - not eBikes yet. We have taken extensive legal advise about the risks to us as a business and to our customers (the KTM shops) and their customers the people who actual ride the bikes.... and I promise you I'm not scaremongering.

 

I know you think adding a dongle is a small step, its is. However it is the same as riding an sPedelec. So whilst it is a small step, its a crucial one. Which like it or not turns your purchase from a bicycle into a motorcycle in the eyes of the UK law. This is not me scaremongering, its a fact. If you want to test it, ride your dongled bike into a Police station, tell them its not road legal and ask them what would happen if you were to be involved in a crash on the roads or trails, and check if your insurance company would cover you if you were chased for damages as a result of any accident where the injured party was suing for damages.

 

Please don't accuse me of scaremongering, just because you can't find an example of something happening yet. eBikes in the UK are very new, and their use age is still small scale. But its getting noticed, and like it or not, this is going to take the eBike world into the mainstream, which means it will be looked at more closely.

 

I'd love to be able to sell sPedelecs and feel safe and comfortable with the liability issues in doing so. I'd also love to be able to sell KTM bikes to shops that insist on ignoring the laws and putting their customers at risk. But I'm afraid we can't and won't.

 

Just because something hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it won't and when it does, I hope a KTM isn't involved.

 

There have been eBikes involved in accidents in the UK, including one fatality that I know of, but so far the ones I know of have been on legal bikes, which for the companies and individuals involved has been very grateful, but when things get to insurance company level it gets serious.

 

If you're happy with the risk, thats fine. But please don't suggest that because I'm putting facts to you (and I don't mean you individually), to help you understand the risk that I'm scaremongering.

I think this bike looks great, you are all worreid about breaking the law but do you all consider that when your in your cars doing 5 mph over the speed limit?

Some of you are even worried about the law changing but i think thats more of a concern for people selling products that dont want to miss out on their payday.

 

It's actually more like using an unregistered kit car or track car on the road without insurance. Not just going a little over the speed limit. As so many have said you would probably get away with it until you had an accident and the police were involved. Even if you were completely innocent of blame for that you would still get it in the neck. Driving a motor vehicle without insurance or a driving licence is usually a banning offence.

RobF, I'm not going to argue with you, but I should present some facts for you and others to see. So I am going to point out that I am Director of a business that sells thousands of eBikes into the UK. We work for KTM, who are in a pretty unique position in being a brand name that makes cars, motorbikes, eMotorbikes, eBikes and push bikes. We are members of BEBA, the Bicycle Association and many other trade only groups and forums in the cycle and motorcycle world. We sell bikes to pedal bike, eBike and motorbike shops. We also work closely with our local police force, we supplied them with bikes - not eBikes yet. We have taken extensive legal advise about the risks to us as a business and to our customers (the KTM shops) and their customers the people who actual ride the bikes.... and I promise you I'm not scaremongering.

 

I know you think adding a dongle is a small step, its is. However it is the same as riding an sPedelec. So whilst it is a small step, its a crucial one. Which like it or not turns your purchase from a bicycle into a motorcycle in the eyes of the UK law. This is not me scaremongering, its a fact. If you want to test it, ride your dongled bike into a Police station, tell them its not road legal and ask them what would happen if you were to be involved in a crash on the roads or trails, and check if your insurance company would cover you if you were chased for damages as a result of any accident where the injured party was suing for damages.

 

Please don't accuse me of scaremongering, just because you can't find an example of something happening yet. eBikes in the UK are very new, and their use age is still small scale. But its getting noticed, and like it or not, this is going to take the eBike world into the mainstream, which means it will be looked at more closely.

 

I'd love to be able to sell sPedelecs and feel safe and comfortable with the liability issues in doing so. I'd also love to be able to sell KTM bikes to shops that insist on ignoring the laws and putting their customers at risk. But I'm afraid we can't and won't.

 

Just because something hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it won't and when it does, I hope a KTM isn't involved.

 

There have been eBikes involved in accidents in the UK, including one fatality that I know of, but so far the ones I know of have been on legal bikes, which for the companies and individuals involved has been very grateful, but when things get to insurance company level it gets serious.

 

If you're happy with the risk, thats fine. But please don't suggest that because I'm putting facts to you (and I don't mean you individually), to help you understand the risk that I'm scaremongering.

 

 

Col,

 

I understand the situation perfectly well.

 

KTM has been advised by lawyers not to sell S-pedelecs.

 

My, that must have been a surprise given they are not legal.

 

You are losing some sales because of this, so have embarked on a crusade to level the playing field for KTM.

 

No problems there, that's your job.

 

Many people not conversant with ebikes will swallow the bullshine, but you can't expect everyone to.

 

You are clinging to the notion that something vanishingly unlikely will happen to someone, and using that to warn others.

 

That is scaremongering.

 

Again, fine, all's fair in love and business.

 

You cannot produce any cases to back up your grave predictions.

 

OK, let's try to come up with a remotely likely scenario.

 

Any car/bike accident the bike/cyclist will come of worst, so the question of the bike never comes into it.

 

Clouting a pedestrian with a dongled ebike sounds more promising, but is it?

 

If the pedestrian sues the ebiker for damages, the amount claimed is for the injuries, it doesn't vary with the type of bike.

 

There is no compulsory insurance for cyclists.

 

Most, I reckon, don't have it, so for them the ebike or not, dongled or not question never arises.

 

An insurance company could, in theory, refuse to payout on a dongled ebiker's policy.

 

But the company would have to show the dongle played a part in the accident.

 

Even then the claim is more likely to be redrawn than refused.

 

But how many ordinary cyclists, let alone ebikers, do you know who have been sued for damages?

 

The doomsday scenario which you are so quick to predict depends on a string of highly unlikely events which all have to happen at the right time and in the right order.

 

It just 'aint gonna happen.

The chance of an insurance company or the Police knowing what a dongle is is pretty small. If you're not totally wiped out in an accident, you could remove it anyway.

 

Although the dongle technically changes the bike from a bicycle to a motor vehicle, it would fall into the same general catagory of illegal vehicles like electric stand-on scooters, mini-motos, etc. If you get caught on those, you don't get the book thrown at you. You either get advised not to use it again, or (normally second offence) you get a section 59 notice, which says if you do it again, your bike will be confiscated. All that is if you're riding it responsibly, and you're polite. If you're riding irresponsibly enough to get a complaint, you could get immediate confiscation, which is often what happens with mini-motos.

 

There's a lot of technically illegal electric bicycles on the road. After all that police activity in London, some must have been stopped and identified, but noone seems to have been prosecuted. We can only assume that they were advised to take their bike home and not use it again in it's illegal state. I very much doubt that any dongled bikes got noticed as it's only the top speed that changed. There's no extra power from the motor, and you only get the speed if you pedal like your life depends on it. As already said, you won't be keeping up with the motorbikes.