Hello

I am waiting anxiously on my new Haibike Nduro pro 2015, it will arrive in about a month from now.

I already own a 2014 Haibike xduro pro hardtail, I fitted a Badass dongle to it, and im planning on doing the same on my new bike, but with a different dongle that I can activate with the lightswitch.

 

Does anybody have experimence with a tuning dongle and Bosch Nyon? What about the ASA Espeed?

Thanks in advance.

 

The bikes will of course only be used in a private forrest when the dongle is activated...

The bikes will of course only be used in a private forrest when the dongle is activated...

Before you do it let somebody more knowledgeable than me comment on the legality.

 

Fairly sure that whilst on road etc:-

Bike with Dongle removed -> legal

Bike with Dongle fitted but switched off -> not legal

 

Appeal to all, PLEASE can we not turn this into one of those several threads on dongles. The OP is obviously already aware of the basic legalities.

A warning to dongle users. Don't post on here that you have a dongle fitted. We've already had one member here, who told everybody about his dongle, then the dealer used it against him to wriggle out of a warranty claim. By all means discuss them, especially the one that your friend has on his bike, but don't admit that you have one.

I was performing a diagnostic and update last week on a Bosch Active, and the software prompted me that the speed sensor had had an "illegal modification". It would appear that it does show up on the diagnostics after all....This was a second hand bike not purchased from OnBike.

First time i've seen this.

I don't see why any Dealer would feel the need to try and "wriggle out of a warranty claim", as they are fulfilled by Bosch and don't cost the dealer anything other than 10 mins work which can be claimed back if necessary.

Name the hook wriggling dealer I say - bet it was a KTM one, that Col seems to want to blame dongles for everything from corked wine to crop failure.

My dealer already knows about the dongle on my old bike, and i know that i will loose the warrenty on the bike when i fit a dongle.

I still think that the prize you pay by putting on the dongle, is worth it, with all the extra fun that a fast bike gives...

I was performing a diagnostic and update last week on a Bosch Active, and the software prompted me that the speed sensor had had an "illegal modification". It would appear that it does show up on the diagnostics after all....This was a second hand bike not purchased from OnBike.

First time i've seen this.

I don't see why any Dealer would feel the need to try and "wriggle out of a warranty claim", as they are fulfilled by Bosch and don't cost the dealer anything other than 10 mins work which can be claimed back if necessary.

 

Martin, can you screen shot this and email it to me? Interested to see it as we obviously run 100's of bikes through diagnostics / update and to date, there is nothing showed up. With the tuning kit removed it has no signal difference at all over the regular speed sensor so I find it hard to believe.

 

Are you sing software version 3.6.0.0? This is the latest and has been out for a while now..

I'm afraid not Martin, as it was last week and we just cleared and updated after showing the customer.

There was no Dongle on the bike, and the customer had never used one, though it was a second hand purchase.

It could be unrelated to Dongles...I was simply highlighting the fact that the system had indeed picked up on a speed sensor anomaly as an "Illegal Modification" and could be picking up the use of one.

 

As I said, I had not seen this before either, but I can assure it was there.

 

I have no axe to grind, and have no problem with customers using their bikes as they wish, though OnBike does not supply dongles.

With regards to the software version, I don't use it that frequently so don't know off by heart, but will certainly have a look next time, as maybe it does indeed need updating to a more recent version.

I don't have a dongle, but it seems perfectly possible to me that a Nyon has all the information necessary from sensors and GPS to infer that there is a speed discrepancy that could be down to a tuning device and the motor is behaving unusually. I don't know enough about the data stored in the motor to guess whether the diagnostics could also make a similar assumption, in the absence of Nyon Gps data, but given enough statistics, which Bosch gathers without allowing us to opt out (probably against EU privacy laws) I think it is possible to compare speeds and torque and say the speeds recorded are incompatible with the energy expended, especially the average maximum speed. In general I would guess people travel close to the maximum for as long as possible, with a dongle I guess the speeds achieved would appear to be be lower for longer, raising suspicions. Also I suspect any motor (over)heating and cooling would have an unusual signature, more like the Sport motor.

The motors don't overheat.

 

Bosch motors have the max rpm and torque values pre programmed.

The fitting of a dongle cannot and does not overide this.

Name the hook wriggling dealer I say - bet it was a KTM one, that Col seems to want to blame dongles for everything from corked wine to crop failure.

 

What do you want to bet?

 

Because, it can't have been a KTM one... unless they went direct to Bosch and didn't inform us - which is possible, but I know Bosch haven't turned down a single warranty on a KTM because of the use of a dongle.... yet.

 

However we haven't that many warranties, so the sample isn't that great.

 

If any warranty was refused, it would be by Bosch - nothing to do with KTM.

 

We're just letting people know, that it is an issue - thats all.

 

Don't shoot the messenger.

What do you want to bet?

 

Because, it can't have been a KTM one... unless they went direct to Bosch and didn't inform us - which is possible, but I know Bosch haven't turned down a single warranty on a KTM because of the use of a dongle.... yet.

 

However we haven't that many warranties, so the sample isn't that great.

 

If any warranty was refused, it would be by Bosch - nothing to do with KTM.

 

We're just letting people know, that it is an issue - thats all.

 

Don't shoot the messenger.

 

Retailer ducking responsibility - again.

 

"We took your money, squire, but don't blame us, it's those nasty Germans."

Retailer ducking responsibility - again.

 

"We took your money, squire, but don't blame us, it's those nasty Germans."

 

Rob... you're so miss-informed its verging on dangerous

 

KTM are not a retailer!! We don't sell to the public. So yes any warranty work is dealt with with by the retailer from whom the customer bought the bike.

 

If a dealer, any dealer of any brand of Bosch bikes has a motor or battery that needs serious warranty work... it goes to Bosch - not the bike brand.

 

Its not anyone ducking responsibility, its the proper procedure for dealing with warranties batteries and motors.

Edited March 29, 201511 yr by KTM Bike Industries UK

Rob... you're so miss-informed its verging on dangerous

 

KTM are not a retailer!! We don't sell to the public. So yes any warranty work is dealt with with by the retailer from whom the customer bought the bike.

 

If a dealer, any dealer of any brand of Bosch bikes has a motor or battery that needs serious warranty work... it goes to Bosch - not the bike brand.

 

Its not anyone ducking responsibility, its the proper procedure for dealing with warranties batteries and motors.

 

Colin.

 

The customer's contract is with the retailer.

 

If it goes wrong under warranty, it is up to the retailer to fix it.

 

The bike trade - and others - routinely fob off customers with: "It's down to manufacturer".

 

But that's all it is - a fob off that has become commonplace.

Seems the Consumer Association is as equally ill-informed as me, and whoever wrote the Sale of Goods Act must be a total numpty.

 

"Your rights are against the retailer – the company that sold you the product – not the manufacturer, and so you must make any claim against the retailer."

 

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/sale-of-goods-act

Colin.

 

The customer's contract is with the retailer.

 

If it goes wrong under warranty, it is up to the retailer to fix it.

 

The bike trade - and others - routinely fob off customers with: "It's down to manufacturer".

 

But that's all it is - a fob off that has become commonplace.

 

In Colins defence FLi have helped on a number of occasions when customers have come back with broken components on their KTM. Ive had shocks replaced at no charge to the customer via Colin, the customer admitted to breaking the shocks. Replacement Bosch control facias where customers have broken them replaced for free, crank arms replaced where a customer has forced the wrong peddle on to the wrong arm. Its not always a quick turn around but the help and more importantly the 'want' to help is there. Kudos also are very pro active in helping sorting out issues with their bikes where the customer needs help. As a retailer I do not shirk nor 'fob' off anyone that genuinely needs help, if I can I will help.

Seems the Consumer Association is as equally ill-informed as me, and whoever wrote the Sale of Goods Act must be a total numpty.

 

"Your rights are against the retailer – the company that sold you the product – not the manufacturer, and so you must make any claim against the retailer."

 

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/sale-of-goods-act

Yes that's correct Rob. All I'm telling you is how the system works.

 

If you send your Rose back to the retailer, which in this case is also Rose..... They won't actually do the work on the bike in many cases. Ie if the fault is bosch it goes back to bosch, if the fault is with the forks it will go back to the relevant service centre.

 

Has someone fobbed you off? Or do you want to give me an example of a case I can hopefully explain to you?

Edited March 29, 201511 yr by KTM Bike Industries UK

Yes that's correct Rob. All I'm telling you is how the system works.

 

No Colin, that is not all you were telling me.

 

You told me in your usual patronising fashion I was ill-informed.

 

You now seem to be saying I am correct.

 

I know how the system works, that's the fob off.

 

The system - when it comes to it - means jack all because it has no foundation.

 

If I cannot get satisfaction with any part of my bike, my only recourse is with the retailer.

 

Put bluntly, he's the only bloke I can sue for damages because he's the only person I have a contract with.

So why did you single me out for a comment if your issue is with a retailer?

 

And the chain is important,because your retailer will send a faulty item back to bosch for examination. So if bosch say they won't warranty it, that means your dealer won't.

So why did you single me out for a comment if your issue is with a retailer?

 

And the chain is important,because your retailer will send a faulty item back to bosch for examination. So if bosch say they won't warranty it, that means your dealer won't.

 

We will soon lose track here, but my post 'singling you out' was in jest 'name the hook wriggling dealer'...'that Col blames dongles for everything', etc.

 

I agree if Bosch say they won't warrant it, the dealer won't.

 

That is precisely why the contract is so important.

 

If I am still unhappy, my only recourse is to negotiate with, and ultimately sue, the dealer.

 

I currently have no issue with any dealer, but I have a permanent issue with big companies and retailers trying to deny the existence and force of basic consumer law.

 

By all means put in place systems and procedures, but don't forget where the buck ultimately stops.

 

Nothing to do with bikes, but I know of more than one instance where a retailer's memory was refreshed remarkably quickly by a county court summons.

Ok RobF... we appear to be saying the same thing now so we can leave this debate.

 

But you've got to appreciate this isn't a game, you can't just insinuate things about me or KTM or our dealers without me coming onto defend our business and our customers.

 

Name the hook wriggling dealer I say - bet it was a KTM one, that Col seems to want to blame dongles for everything from corked wine to crop failure.

 

You seem to have admitted now, that you don't have any examples of where a KTM dealer has attempted to get out of a warranty - because it simply hasn't happened.

 

As Tom at LEBC has pointed out, in every case I'm aware of in the UK, where we've been involved we've actually warrantied things that shouldn't be, to help our dealers out. Not the other way around.

 

If you ever have a concern about a case, or want clarification, just message me or start a new thread that we can respond to, so everyone understands whats going on.

Col,

 

You patronise me - and others - time and time again.

 

I'm starting to think it's just your way, and you probably don't mean any harm.

 

But however you cut it, you posted claptrap about consumer law.

 

I corrected it, not for you benefit, but for anyone who might read the thread and take a few pointers from it.

 

There is widespread interest in this stuff - consumer law applies to most retail transactions, not just those involving orange bicycles.

 

My post that started this was clearly tongue in cheek, there was no insinuation of anything.

 

Unless you take my remark 'blaming dongles for everything from corked wine to crop failure' seriously.

 

You need to lighten up a bit.

 

Look at the thread title - Bosch Nyon tuning dongle.

 

Once again, nothing to do with KTM.

 

If anyone's getting a hiding on this thread, it's Bosch or the retail cycle trade generally.

 

Please do not tell me what I can and can not post.

 

That is outside your pay grade.

 

If you want to control all the content, start your own forum.

Wouldn't it be more productive and helpful for this forum as a whole for you two guys to wash your dirty linen in private?

 

You'll never agree. Gets a little tedious.

Wouldn't it be more productive and helpful for this forum as a whole for you two guys to wash your dirty linen in private?

 

You'll never agree. Gets a little tedious.

 

If there was any dirty linen it would be really interesting.

 

Me and Col get on alright, in a 'disagree about a few things' kind of way.

 

I nearly bought one of his push mountain bikes - the 1964.

 

Only thing that stopped was I was away at the time and the bike would have to have been left in my hatchback in public over night.

 

I had visions of a smashed rear window and a very short ownership experience.

Yes, I'd agree Rob, I don't take anything on a forum personally and I'm on here to learn as much an anything else. Discussions usually benefit everyone writing and reading them as we can all learn something.

 

In this case, I think I've given you too much detail about the way the supply chain works behind the scenes to support the retailer in the hope of helping you understanding why if a warranty was declined because of the use of a dongle it would never be KTM / Haibike / Cube or any other brand that was causing the problem. I'll know for future to try and keep things more simple for everyones benefit.

 

Its Bosch's policy, one we just brought to the attention of the forum because some dealers were saying that the dongle doesn't invalidate your warranty.

 

So yes I jumped into to defend the KTM name and our dealers and always will.

 

So just to clear things up, your understanding of consumer law and posts about it are 100% correct.

 

I can't think of any case I've known for years in the cycle industry where any brand has used any loop hole to get out of fulfilling a warranty, its simply not worth it. If you're nice to the shop, I'd suggest in 99% of times you'll get something warrantied.