Angela Merkel isn't insane, she is merely a politician with all that implies.

 

For example, throughout her career she was always an ardent supporter of nuclear energy, against the general tide in Germany. But when there was a chance she could become Chancellor and realising that would never happen there for a pro-nuclear person, she instantly swapped sides on that issue.

 

With the current issue, she decided that taking the moral high ground would be best when faced with migrants in poor circumstances. Why? Well, at that time Germany was increasingly being seen as the bad guy and a bully over their insistence on Greece repaying their euro debt to Germany, so the immigrant issue she saw as a chance of changing that image to a humane one.

 

Maybe that was a mistake, but we all make those.

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I'm afraid she has demonstrated breathtaking insanity. Her act of allowing an uncontrolled, unchecked flow of people from an area where savages are known to be at large went well beyond a mistake. She has committed an act of treachery against German people and people in other European countries. She should be held to account. I think anybody with the slightest bit of common sense could see this train wreck coming and now it's here.

 

I don't know how this migrant invasion will end, but I am certain of two things. One it won't end well, and two those who caused it won't be affected.

Edited January 22, 201610 yr by tillson

I'm afraid she has demonstrated great insanity. Her act of allowing an uncontrolled, unchecked flow of people from an area where savages are known to be at large went well beyond a mistake. She has committed an act of treachery against German people and people in other European countries. She should be held to account. I think anybody with the slightest bit of common sense could see this train wreck coming and now it's here.

 

I don't know how this migrant invasion will end, but I am certain of two things. One it won't end well, and two those who caused it won't be affected.

 

I think you may be mistaken, since we have a precedent. Short of workers, long ago Germany encouraged migration from Turkey, virtually all Muslims.

 

Now overall, the number of German residents with origins in Turkey is approximately 2,998,000 or approximately 3.7% of Germany's population. One state alone of the twelve, North Rhine-Westphalia, has over one million of Turkish origin which is similar to the new number of migrants overall into Germany.

 

Germany is a very capable nation, they absorbed those almost 3 million Turks successfully and since have absorbed over 15 millions from East Germany successfully. The current million or so is peanuts to them with their huge experience in this area.

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I hope you are right, but I fear a disaster is starting gather pace in Europe.

I hope you are right, but I fear a disaster is starting gather pace in Europe.

 

I agree that this situation is extremely serious and presents a real threat to the European project. For many that's a potential disaster, for some others, particularly in the UK, a cause for celebration.

 

But just as previously within the EU, Germany will come out of it wealthier and smelling of roses.

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I have been waiting for the outcome of the Prime Minister's renegotiation of the UK's EU membership before deciding which way I will vote. Sadly, what he has achieved, pending approval from other member states, does not resemble what he promised prior to the general election.

 

I think he owes it to the country to be truthful now and to end his pretence that this is a good deal, IF approved.

I have been waiting for the outcome of the Prime Minister's renegotiation of the UK's EU membership before deciding which way I will vote. Sadly, what he has achieved, pending approval from other member states, does not resemble what he promised prior to the general election.

 

I think he owes it to the country to be truthful now and to end his pretence that this is a good deal, IF approved.

 

I'm still strongly in favour of remaining in the EU and am totally opposed to this renegotiation or any referendum on the subject.

 

But you are right that this provisional agreement is worthless, even in its present form, and will probably become more so after all member countries have had their say and made their amendments. It is not an adequate basis for a decision to leave or stay.

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I'm still strongly in favour of remaining in the EU and am totally opposed to this renegotiation or any referendum on the subject.

 

But you are right that this provisional agreement is worthless, even in its present form, and will probably become more so after all member countries have had their say and made their amendments. It is not an adequate basis for a decision to leave or stay.

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I completely agree about it not being an adequate basis on which to make a decision. I'm working on the basis of the Prime Minister finding it necessary to lie, gag his cabinet and to deceive the public in order to make his case for EU membership. That's a good indicator that the EU is not good deal for me.

 

I'd like to see truth and balanced information. This is s big decision and I'm immediately put of by snake oil salesmen.

 

What's wrong with letting the public decide anyway?

What's wrong with letting the public decide anyway?

 

I think a high proportion of the public have already decided, their decision being that this was always going to be a propaganda exercise by the PM.

 

Being pro-EU, I'm personally annoyed at Cameron since I believe he is very foolishly inadvertantly helping the anti-EU cause.

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I think a high proportion of the public have already decided, their decision being that this was always going to be a propaganda exercise by the PM.

 

Being pro-EU, I'm personally annoyed at Cameron since I believe he is very foolishly inadvertantly helping the anti-EU cause.

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You may not have guessed, but I'm leaning towards leaving the EU. I know I sometime post some deliberately provocative statements on here, but in general, I try to approach matters with an open mind.

 

I think that you are right, David Cameron is in real danger of alienating the public by taking them for fools. This will back-fire on him and people will vote to leave out of anger and frustration. This is not the right frame of mind in which to make such a big decision. Whichever way people decide to vote, it needs to be because it's what is best for them and to do that we need clear unbiased information from both sides.

I think a high proportion of the public have already decided, their decision being that this was always going to be a propaganda exercise by the PM.

 

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I don't think that David Cameron actually made the decision that he was going to wage a propaganda war.

Surely his aim was to get the best deal that he could in order to pursuade the British public to stay in the EU? The fact that he hasn't managed to get that deal doesn't seem to me to be due to any lack of trying on his behalf, rather a reluctance by the EU to give in to his demands. And his demands have been shown to be the demands of a lot of the British public - to stem immigration with all it's implications, to return some voting, judicial and sovereign rights to us from EU hands and to give us a fair deal within the Eurozone.

He seems to me to have worked damned hard in the face of impossible circumstances and I don't suppose it should surprise anyone that he is now making the best of a bad job, (which people will generally see through).

I don't think that David Cameron actually made the decision that he was going to wage a propaganda war.

Surely his aim was to get the best deal that he could in order to pursuade the British public to stay in the EU? The fact that he hasn't managed to get that deal doesn't seem to me to be due to any lack of trying on his behalf, rather a reluctance by the EU to give in to his demands. And his demands have been shown to be the demands of a lot of the British public - to stem immigration with all it's implications, to return some voting, judicial and sovereign rights to us from EU hands and to give us a fair deal within the Eurozone.

He seems to me to have worked damned hard in the face of impossible circumstances and I don't suppose it should surprise anyone that he is now making the best of a bad job, (which people will generally see through).

 

In reply to your first sentence, I'm quite sure he knew at the outset that Europe would never agree to what the anti-EU British really wanted and that whatever he did get would have to be spun.

 

But I fully agree with all the rest of your post since he cannot be blamed for the rather negative outcome. It was always going to be thus.

 

My criticism is that in trying a bit too desperately to spin the result to date, he's reinforcing the anti movement. I think it would have been wiser to delay any comments until the more final stages nearer to the vote.

 

Then, in a more neutral atmosphere and with the help of the sympathetic EU members, he could pull a rabbit out of the hat with a surprise gain to swing the final vote. He might yet try that, but he's made it more difficult now.

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I don't think that David Cameron actually made the decision that he was going to wage a propaganda war.

Surely his aim was to get the best deal that he could in order to pursuade the British public to stay in the EU? The fact that he hasn't managed to get that deal doesn't seem to me to be due to any lack of trying on his behalf, rather a reluctance by the EU to give in to his demands. And his demands have been shown to be the demands of a lot of the British public - to stem immigration with all it's implications, to return some voting, judicial and sovereign rights to us from EU hands and to give us a fair deal within the Eurozone.

He seems to me to have worked damned hard in the face of impossible circumstances and I don't suppose it should surprise anyone that he is now making the best of a bad job, (which people will generally see through).

I was with you till you said "He seems to have worked dammed hard", I don't think so.

The EU is probably the greatest thing ever to happen to European nations frequently at war over centuries. The notion that neighbours could live harmoniously had never been disseminated across large numbers of countries until the latter end of the 20th century and the early part of the 21st.

 

For all its faults the EU has been the greatest stabilising influence across the continent ever and whatever the costs incurred, they don't come anywhere near the cost of financing a major war, either in strict monetary terms or far more importantly, in human terms.

 

Unfortunately, due to the very deliberate mis-reporting or non-reporting of facts by the British media, the proletariat has been denied a proper understanding of what has really been happening over the last 40 years. For many, the jingoism broadcast by the powerful, corporate media has provided a means to blame somebody for all the ills in British society. That somebody, in this case, is the EU. The tory party currently running, (ruining), this country just love to make political capital out of our membership of the EU, proclaiming that all our ills are the fault of the nasty Germans, French, Italians, etc.

 

It wasn't the EU which decided to destroy the British car industry, coal or steelmaking. The EU didn't order the UK to dismantle all the great state-run institutions and give them away to rich corporations. All these decisions were made by tories and not one of those acts of social vandalism or destruction has ever had any motive in the interests of ordinary people - all were committed in order to provide incredible wealth for small minorities, all friends of the tory party, indeed many actual parliamentary tories themselves.

 

Introducing new laws to criminalise trade union strikes and to make ballots almost impossible while supporting the immorality of zero hours contracts, unpaid apprenticeships plus an expressed desire to abolish the human rights act and change H&S regulations describe exactly what the tory party is about and always has been. All these things have been born out of their ideology and hatred for the lower classes, the sick, the disabled, the elderly and the unemployed they created.

 

While they have been raping the nation, they have ensured that their friends in banking may continue to pay themselves indecent salaries plus even more indecent bonuses. Their other corporate friends have been allowed to escape paying taxes to the tune of hundreds of millions of pounds while we have tens of thousands surviving thanks to food banks in this second decade of the 21st century! People have died as a direct result of tory dogma over the 'fit to work' and 'bedroom tax' policies but neither their parliamentary party nor the disgusting people who vote for them give a toss.

 

As for the tory line on the EU and even worse, the UKIP view, it's not difficult to understand their hatred for the concept and for Britain's membership. The whole concept of the EU is based, (very loosely), on democracy and relies on a voting structure of very disparate nations and their needs and ambitions. The whole system (rather than the people) is essentially socialist, therefore the desires of the richest and most powerful are constrained within the general structure and aims of the organisation. Many rules and strategies are in place to ensure the greater good of all rather than what suits one particular country. The main players gave up their currencies to demonstrate their commitment to the principle of union with few exceptions.

 

The EU will survive and prosper with or without the UK but we have nothing to look forward to by leaving the union. Any foolish notions to the contrary are simply another part of the media reporting distortion on behalf of the tory party, to be believed by the simpletons who vote for the fascist murderers and are therefore accessories before the fact, to use an old-fashioned expression.

 

Tom

Edited February 3, 201610 yr by oldtom

Perhaps we should ban politics from this Forum.

It wasn't the EU which decided to destroy the British car industry, coal or steelmaking. The EU didn't order the UK to dismantle all the great state-run institutions and give them away to rich corporations. All these decisions were made by tories and not one of those acts of social vandalism or destruction has ever had any motive in the interests of ordinary people - all were committed in order to provide incredible wealth for small minorities, all friends of the tory party, indeed many actual parliamentary tories themselves.

 

Quite true, while since 1997 our version of democracy has offered us just variations on Conservatism as the only electable possibilities.

 

Such is the confidence with this status quo that as soon as a large section of the public elect a genuine socialist to a position of power and influence as leader of the opposition, all the allied forces are mustered to discredit him with every possible lie and distortion employed.

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Perhaps we should ban politics from this Forum.

 

Why? This is the Charging Post forum, for any subject not necessarily connected in any way with e-biking.

 

Since the title of this thread that I started is political, no-one is being tricked into entering it, or even into the Charging Post forum. Free choices for free speech.

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nor the disgusting people who vote for them give a toss.

 

Tom

A bit strong methinks, and I for one, am a bit unhappy with that comment TBH.

Why? This is the Charging Post forum, for any subject not necessarily connected in any way with e-biking.

 

Since the title of this thread that I started is political, no-one is being tricked into entering it, or even into the Charging Post forum. Free choices for free speech.

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Nothing wrong with talking politics but it shouldn't be beyond the means of communication for intelligent people to speak respectfully of others on the forum.

 

As I have said before on this very thread, having a different point of view from another doesn't make that person stupid or disgusting, they simply have a different point of view.

 

Just keep it polite and respectful folks.

having a different point of view from another doesn't make that person stupid or disgusting, they simply have a different point of view.

 

Or as some might say, they simply have a stupid or disgusting point of view.

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I am biting my tongue and will say no more

YouGov have a poll on the EU referendum at 56/44.

It looks like we are going to vote to leave the EU.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/02/04/eu-referendum-leave-leads-nine/

What now? Will there be a rush in the next two years before the doors close?

I doubt it, and after the general election polls I don’t think anyone takes them too seriously. When the reality of what would happen if we did leave bites, and the stark choice is made. Then just like the Scots the UK will in all probability vote to stay with nurse for fear of something worse.

 

Of course Dave will almost certainly go if the vote is for out whatever he says now. That might make a difference as the Tories are hardly loved, just more electable than the opposition in the minds of a majority of the public; and that’s one of the troubles with plebiscites. It’s easy to call them but no one really knows or can predict the reasons why people vote the way they do….

I doubt it, and after the general election polls I don’t think anyone takes them too seriously. When the reality of what would happen if we did leave bites, and the stark choice is made. Then just like the Scots the UK will in all probability vote to stay with nurse for fear of something worse.

 

Of course Dave will almost certainly go if the vote is for out whatever he says now. That might make a difference as the Tories are hardly loved, just more electable than the opposition in the minds of a majority of the public; and that’s one of the troubles with plebiscites. It’s easy to call them but no one really knows or can predict the reasons why people vote the way they do….

I think the significant thing about the polls is that they have all started to go in the direction of favouring exit since David Cameron's announcement about the deal he has secured with the EU. It can't be disguised that that deal is very poor and the public recognise that fact. I honestly think that some 'don't know' voters were waiting to see what he would come up with and now they see the results they are thinking of exit.

Maybe once the polls show a significant tendency towards exit, the EU may start to panic a bit, not because they are bothered about us leaving the EU as such but because of the effect that breaking up the union would have on an already crumbling institution. It may just be a defining moment for the EU on top of the Greek debacle, the weak and struggling euro and the immigration issue.

I watched Guy Verhofstadt on BBC2 yesterday, he explains clearly why the EU needs ever closer political, economic and defense union for the foreseable future.

[mention=12435]Lancslass[/mention] - I don't see the EU as crumbling. The EU is the right solution for continental Europe, although faced with formidable problems to solve, they are the only credible solution and maybe sooner than many predict, will have a seat on the UN security Council.