Just playing devils advocate here for a moment....

 

What's stopping Stealth from getting Crystalyte to under rate the beefy DD hub motor as 250W and then shipping the bike limited to a max speed of 15.5mph configured at the Cycle Analyst? Wouldn't it then be UK legal?

The way I see it we are all just dragging our heels with ebikes and the ridiculous 15mph limit.

 

Kudos- I hope you don't mind me saying but I think you're being short sighted with your view.

 

- think about no 15mph limit and a legal way of riding the s pedelcs. Your general customer base wouldn't just be the over 60's, it'd be the whole of London.

 

Average commute to London? ... maybe 10 miles? ... with a 15mph limit you'd be lucky to average 10mph. On a push bike you can average 15 mph... hmmmmm... time is precious..

 

Population - 8 million..

 

London spends an astronomical amount of money on transport and has the most expensive commute in the world. It's not comparable to anywhere else.

 

Why don't you and the rest of the traders get together and push for a change? - surely it'd be a good thing?

Just playing devils advocate here for a moment....

 

What's stopping Stealth from getting Crystalyte to under rate the beefy DD hub motor as 250W and then shipping the bike limited to a max speed of 15.5mph configured at the Cycle Analyst? Wouldn't it then be UK legal?

 

No, because the user has control of the Cycle Analyst. With a more fixed limitation to 15.5 mph it could be legal.

.

Kudos- I hope you don't mind me saying but I think you're being short sighted with your view.

 

- think about no 15mph limit and a legal way of riding the s pedelcs. Your general customer base wouldn't just be the over 60's, it'd be the whole of London.

 

Jumping to his defence, KudosDave isn't posting about the S class, he just wants the ordinary pedelecs to remain the same

 

Why don't you and the rest of the traders get together and push for a change? - surely it'd be a good thing?

 

The trade has pushed the DfT to try to get approval for the S class and continues to do so. Kudos Dave is not opposed to that. At present the DfT are opposed to having the S class.

 

What you seem to be missing is that the S class has restrictions everywhere. They have to be registered, have a number plate and have vehicle third party insurance, and they are banned from cycle paths, shared paths, bridleways and Sustrans routes. Current moves may mean they will have to be type approved and riders may be required to have a group Q driving licence in future.

 

That's why in Germany where they can buy either, only a small minority buy an S class bike, pedelecs dominate their market.

.

problem is no 1 would buy 1 as no way you could ride that with no power assist.

 

i was looking at getting a bomber till i seen the weight of it. its a tank

Flecc - thanks for the reply - sorry, I hadn't missed that the S class has restrictions everywhere. I didn't think it possible to register and use them in the UK though?

 

I read that actually demand for s class bikes is increasing, can't remember where from though - will try and find it

 

edit - great to hear the trade is pushing for change... hopefully something will happen soon!

The way I see it we are all just dragging our heels with ebikes and the ridiculous 15mph limit.

 

Kudos- I hope you don't mind me saying but I think you're being short sighted with your view.

 

- think about no 15mph limit and a legal way of riding the s pedelcs. Your general customer base wouldn't just be the over 60's, it'd be the whole of London.

 

Average commute to London? ... maybe 10 miles? ... with a 15mph limit you'd be lucky to average 10mph. On a push bike you can average 15 mph... hmmmmm... time is precious..

 

Population - 8 million..

 

London spends an astronomical amount of money on transport and has the most expensive commute in the world. It's not comparable to anywhere else.

 

Why don't you and the rest of the traders get together and push for a change? - surely it'd be a good thing?

 

It isn't going to happen,BEBA is supposed to be the trade body representing the industry. They have been lobbying the Dft for years to keep throttles,we all know the outcome....to try to get S-class in the UK,as a result of trade lobbying,you might as well try to ride to the space station!

The only way S-class will happen here is if the Dft find it an expedient solution out of a problem of their making or the EU forces it on us.

As flecc has pointed out S-class isn't to everyone's taste,you can only ride them on the highway and with much regulation.

Those who want to find a way round the 15 mph limit have already done so but it hasn't caused an explosion in e-bike sales.

I personally think the industry isn't offering precisely the right bikes at the moment but the concept is still evolving.

KudosDave

No, because the user has control of the Cycle Analyst. With a more fixed limitation to 15.5 mph it could be legal.

.

What's the difference between that and other controllers limited at their display consoles, or even unplugging the limit wire on your typical china controller? Have you ever played with a cycle analyst? Reprogramming the speed limit from the console is not something you can easily do while riding.

Edited January 23, 201610 yr by danielrlee

Flecc - thanks for the reply - sorry, I hadn't missed that the S class has restrictions everywhere. I didn't think it possible to register and use them in the UK though?

 

I read that actually demand for s class bikes is increasing, can't remember where from though - will try and find it

 

edit - great to hear the trade is pushing for change... hopefully something will happen soon!

 

Sorry to disappoint you but I see nor hear of any push by the e-bike industry,certainly no lobby for change. I think most of us take matters retrospectively and make the most of the law as we personally interpret it,

I personally think the 15 mph limit is at a poor threshold point,it's just on the cruise for most of us....but that limit is becoming a worldwide limit so it's almost impossible that the UK will increase it.

As a designer it's interesting to work within the law,it makes us achieve the maximum within the limits of the rule,The performance of these bikes has been transformed over the last 5 years....5 years ago the Dutch style bikes weighed 30 kgs,all tail end heavy,basic PAS control,low torque motors.

Now we have the weight down to low 20 kgs,better battery positions,the King Display gives a lot more control and the BPM motors have much higher low speed torque. During that time prices have remained pretty much the same. What will these bikes be like 5 years hence?

KudosDave

It isn't going to happen,BEBA is supposed to be the trade body representing the industry. They have been lobbying the Dft for years to keep throttles,we all know the outcome....to try to get S-class in the UK,as a result of trade lobbying,you might as well try to ride to the space station!

The only way S-class will happen here is if the Dft find it an expedient solution out of a problem of their making or the EU forces it on us.

As flecc has pointed out S-class isn't to everyone's taste,you can only ride them on the highway and with much regulation.

Those who want to find a way round the 15 mph limit have already done so but it hasn't caused an explosion in e-bike sales.

I personally think the industry isn't offering precisely the right bikes at the moment but the concept is still evolving.

KudosDave

 

 

Thanks for the reply. Maybe it's difficult for the BEBA to really push something?

 

I disagree though, one day it will happen.. I hope

Sorry to disappoint you but I see nor hear of any push by the e-bike industry,certainly no lobby for change. I think most of us take matters retrospectively and make the most of the law as we personally interpret it,

I personally think the 15 mph limit is at a poor threshold point,it's just on the cruise for most of us....but that limit is becoming a worldwide limit so it's almost impossible that the UK will increase it.

As a designer it's interesting to work within the law,it makes us achieve the maximum within the limits of the rule,The performance of these bikes has been transformed over the last 5 years....5 years ago the Dutch style bikes weighed 30 kgs,all tail end heavy,basic PAS control,low torque motors.

Now we have the weight down to low 20 kgs,better battery positions,the King Display gives a lot more control and the BPM motors have much higher low speed torque. During that time prices have remained pretty much the same. What will these bikes be like 5 years hence?

KudosDave

 

 

That's a shame. So there is no push from the BEBTA for S pedelecs then?

 

Understood about the development and completely agree.. Look at motorsport, that's where we 're starting to see the potential.

Thanks for the reply. Maybe it's difficult for the BEBA to really push something?

 

I disagree though, one day it will happen.. I hope

BEBA has no agenda to lobby for S-class in the UK,I think they have run out of energy to achieve full speed throttles.

Only if the government can figure out a way of taxing pedelecs....maybe a higher tax level the higher the cutoff speed. We should be grateful the limit in Japan and China is 200 watts and 12 mph,pretty much ignored in China but they do have a mercenary way of enforcing it,if they choose to do so.

Actually Motorsport has been the beneficiary of the governments punitive charges of SVA kit cars,it is so expensive to get a kit car registered that many are circuit racers only to be trailed to races.

KudosDave

Edited January 23, 201610 yr by Kudoscycles

What's the difference between that and other controllers limited at their display consoles, or even unplugging the limit wire on your typical china controller? Have you ever played with a cycle analyst? Reprogramming the speed limit from the console is not something you can easily do while riding.

 

I'm just interpreting what the law might say about this method, not about what is logical.

.

I'm just interpreting what the law might say about this method, not about what is logical.

.

As far as I can see in this limited configuration and with an under rated motor, there is little difference between a Bomber and many other UK legal ebikes.

 

It's quite funny really. For all the discussion of laws and legality that goes on here, we still haven't a clue between us, have we?

I also think the reason many have for frowning at illegal stealth bikes is the bad name they could give all e-bikes when used by irresponsible types. Unfortunately there's plenty of those, as well as those who behave well.

.

 

Agree with that totally. I see more normal "pedal only "MTB cyclists acting like total hooligans on the cycle tracks , than any of the riders I know and see here in jersey that have greater than 250watt e-bikes.

I the past 5 years I have completed over 16,000 miles on mine, commotion every day to work..often slower than pedal cyclists on the cycle tracks, when the conditions dictate. And my bike is (well, was. ) more powerful than the Stealth. Running at 100 volts it was doing bursts of 140 amps..that is 14kW. I tuned it down to about 8kW.

 

Never had an issue, accident or even incident in all those miles. I do to have motorbike, but I use it as a different means of transport..so no 'frustrated motorcycle rider syndrome' If I want to go on the motorbike I can

 

Now the whole issue of illegal bikes has become more known about in Jersey, I have stopped riding it and gone back to the car for every day commuting, and turned the bike down to 250 watt and 15mph PAS only ..which makes it pretty pointless vehicle for my needs.

 

 

But even Kudos admits that people complain about the speed limit power cut out issue..and try to get around it..and then they are happy..so they in effect now have illegal bikes too

Turbo....are you saying that you bought a Stealth without understanding the pedelec law? You spent £10k without figuring out where you could ride this motorbike? Have you registered it as a motorbike?

These bikes make a noise like a load of circular saws,I just cannot believe you haven't been challenged riding it. Down our way on cycle trails you would be stopped constantly by true cyclists,quite forcibly at times!!!!!!

No right thinking person could ever consider a 5kw machine as a bicycle,it is a motorbike.

The problem we all have about you guys riding these bikes on cycle trails or the highway is the 'tarred with the same brush syndrome'....I get a lot of enjoyment legally riding my legal e-bike along the seafront,the oyster trail is a delight from Whistable to Margate. Myself and fellow cyclists had to lobby the council to get the right to do so,we join with dog walkers,ramblers and kids,it requires consideration by all to make it work safely....it only needs one high powered electric motorbike to cause the council to ban electric bikes and spoil enjoyment for many.

Sometimes I get questioned about the legality of using a pedelec on the seafront,I explain the rules and power limits carefully and with courtesy walkers are often very interested.

KudosDave

 

i would get challenged quite forcibly, what a joke if any one tried that it would end in tears and as for they sound like a load of circular saws utter rubbish, do you drive on public roads ?? have you ever broken the speed limit has anyone every forcibly stopped you and told you your braking the law and your going to spoil it for others hmmmmm...

It's quite funny really. For all the discussion of laws and legality that goes on here, we still haven't a clue between us, have we?

 

For the less usual and possibly marginal, that's true, but of course that's the vague nature of the law that is to blame. Solicitors will be equally clueless, which is why the lawmakers, the DfT themselves, usually state in their guidance notes that the document is only their view of the law and it needs to be tested by a court to be certain.

 

But for most commercial pedelecs it's not true, since they very clearly comply with the law. In this instance for example, needing tools to alter the assist speed control is clearly compliant with the law, since that is modification of the construction.

.

Agree with that totally. I see more normal "pedal only "MTB cyclists acting like total hooligans on the cycle tracks , than any of the riders I know and see here in jersey that have greater than 250watt e-bikes.

 

True everywhere I think. There's a parallel of this between the enthusiast car drivers and the run-of-the-mill drivers on our roads who scrape through their driving tests. It's the latter who do the most stupid things on our roads.

.

For the less usual and possibly marginal, that's true, but of course that's the vague nature of the law that is to blame. Solicitors will be equally clueless, which is why the lawmakers, the DfT themselves, usually state in their guidance notes that the document is only their view of the law and it needs to be tested by a court to be certain.

 

But for most commercial pedelecs it's not true, since they very clearly comply with the law. In this instance for example, needing tools to alter the assist speed control is clearly compliant with the law, since that is modification of the construction.

.

Are cycle analysts, KT displays and the like(speed adjustable by the rider) legal ? Are bikes that can be fitted with a dongle legal ?

Are cycle analysts, KT displays and the like(speed adjustable by the rider) legal ? Are bikes that can be fitted with a dongle legal ?

 

I think the first can easily be challenged at law and I don't see them as being legal. The DfT appears to support my view with this statement:

 

The use of an "Off Road Button" however is strictly forbidden now and is specifically mentioned in documents appertaining to new and existing guidelines.

 

Dongles are definitely illegal, they are a modification of the construction intended to breach the law.

.

My KT display won't let me go over the legal limit,fitted with 36 v battery,even when I alter the display. If I fitted a 48 v battery it would go over the legal limit.I knew fitting a bike with a dongle is illegal but is a bike capable of been fitted with one illegal.

My KT display won't let me go over the legal limit,fitted with 36 v battery,even when I alter the display. If I fitted a 48 v battery it would go over the legal limit.I knew fitting a bike with a dongle is illegal but is a bike capable of been fitted with one illegal.

 

I don't know the KT display so was misled by your earlier post into thinking it could be programmed to illegality. Clearly your bike is legal in the KT display respect. The battery voltage is irrelevant since the law says the bike must have a manufacturer label affixed with information which includes the standard battery voltage. That of course is to prevent the use of higher voltages to defeat the law.

 

A bike capable of being fitted with a dongle can be entirely legal since the dongle illegality is based on the modification, as I posted. Without the dongle attached it isn't modified.

.

I don't know the KT display so was misled by your earlier post into thinking it could be programmed to illegality. Clearly your bike is legal in the KT display respect. The battery voltage is irrelevant since the law says the bike must have a manufacturer label affixed with information which includes the standard battery voltage. That of course is to prevent the use of higher voltages to defeat the law.

 

A bike capable of being fitted with a dongle can be entirely legal since the dongle illegality is based on the modification, as I posted. Without the dongle attached it isn't modified.

.

The KT display can be programmed to go over the legal limit,with a 48 v battery.And it could be programmed to to cut off at the legal limit,with 48v.so my bike 36 v KT display ,because of the display is ilegal.But a bike capable of been fitted with a dongle is legal.I don't know why I tried to stay within the law.

Edited January 24, 201610 yr by craiggor

so my bike 36 v KT display ,because of the display is ilegal.

 

No. it's not illegal because of the display, since the labelling law restricts it to 36 volts and you say the display cannot make it illegally fast on 36 volts.

 

It seems you are entirely legal but could be illegal with a dongle fitted.

.

No. it's not illegal because of the display, since the labelling law restricts it to 36 volts and you say the display cannot make it illegally fast on 36 volts.

 

It seems you are entirely legal but could be illegal with a dongle fitted.

.

So programmable displays legal if fitted to 250w @ 36v.