It seems I may have opened a can of worms here regarding the law and the maximum power and speed allowed. I was just hoping to go with a 2-stage system where I can go from road legal normal riding to off-road "illegal" if you like, for rough terrain riding where a bit more power would add a bit of fun.

 

So reading between the lines even that's not strictly lawful, but I have noticed drive systems are being advertised at various outlets way above 250w with the statement saying default setting 250w, which of course can be overridden, or other statements stating strictly for off road use only.

 

It seems obvious to me that whatever system one fits to ones bicycle it is and always will be open to abuse, there will always be people who are clever enough to find ways around it.

It's simply down to the individual to do the right thing. How many road users actually religiously abide to the national speed limits, not many that's for sure.

 

Can I just point out that if you're riding off-road you're still going to have to abide by the law, there is no difference using it off or on-road in the UK.

 

In reality offroad is more likely to cause you problems, and cause the rest of us problems. So by all means use illegal eBikes off road, all the risk is with you the owner. Because you'll be using an illegal vehicle with no tax, insurance or MOT. Its not like speeding! So check your mortgage / life insurance would pay out should you be involved in an accident whilst riding.

 

Offroad people using illegally fast / powerful bikes has the potential to result in all eBikes being banned, or worse all MTB's being banned because landowners and trailcentres can't simply police the power levels, so they'll have to ban everything.

Can I just point out that if you're riding off-road you're still going to have to abide by the law, there is no difference using it off or on-road in the UK.

 

In reality offroad is more likely to cause you problems, and cause the rest of us problems. So by all means use illegal eBikes off road, all the risk is with you the owner. Because you'll be using an illegal vehicle with no tax, insurance or MOT. Its not like speeding! So check your mortgage / life insurance would pay out should you be involved in an accident whilst riding.

 

Offroad people using illegally fast / powerful bikes has the potential to result in all eBikes being banned, or worse all MTB's being banned because landowners and trailcentres can't simply police the power levels, so they'll have to ban everything.

 

OK point taken I see where your coming from, so I guess if I wanted to ride off road with a more powerful drive system then that would be fine providing it was not on land which is open to the public, in other words on private land.

OK point taken I see where your coming from, so I guess if I wanted to ride off road with a more powerful drive system then that would be fine providing it was not on land which is open to the public, in other words on private land.

 

yes, that's correct. But it has to be private land with no public access.

 

So in reality if you have got access to this land, you're best of buying a motorbike and using it properly.

yes, that's correct. But it has to be private land with no public access.

 

So in reality if you have got access to this land, you're best of buying a motorbike and using it properly.

What nonsense reasoning!

 

If you've got access to this private land, you'll want a REALLY high power electric bike [emoji1]

OK point taken I see where your coming from, so I guess if I wanted to ride off road with a more powerful drive system then that would be fine providing it was not on land which is open to the public, in other words on private land.

 

Strictly, it's 'no public access' which makes things a bit harder.

 

As an example, a field you own sounds good, but it needs to be properly hedged or fenced, and gated.

 

Even better, there should be a lock on the gate.

 

Your private forest would be more fun to ride in, but it is vanishingly unlikely to be fully enclosed.

 

It's irrelevant for this purpose that the member of the public you injured was committing a civil trespass when he wandered across your path.

 

Depends on your attitude to risk, little is likely to go wrong riding a moderately over-powered ebike in a responsible manner.

 

But don't kid yourself it's legal.

What nonsense reasoning!

 

If you've got access to this private land, you'll want a REALLY high power electric bike.

 

You do realise that a really high power electric bike.... IS by definition a Motorbike!!!

 

the mechanism of power isn't relevant to the term motor.

You do realise that a really high power electric bike.... IS by definition a Motorbike!!!

 

the mechanism of power isn't relevant to the term motor.

Yes, I do in the sense of our inflexible legal definitions, but we all know that in practice that a purpose built motorcycle and a bike frame with an electric drive are two completely different beasts to own and ride.

I think your interpretations of public access are a bit extreme. I would have said that you'd be OK in any place where public would normally need permission to enter. Take for example your back garden. You wouldn't be expected to have lockable gates, a security guard and an electric fence around it. If a stranger comes in without permission and gets injured by you, you won't be prosecuted for using an illegal bike, and I should think that he'll have a tough time trying to claim against you.

What we don't want is what is currently happening in China...the limits in China are 12 mph and 200 watts.

The reality is that the government have ignored these limits and taken no action. Most of the e-bikes in China are 500 watts minimum and some of the scooters are 4 kW.

2300 people were killed in e-bike related accidents last year and every pavement is crammed 3 deep with them,they are whisper silent and ride in all directions....you learn in China to walk in straight lines so that the guy/gal on the e-bike coming from behind has a chance of missing you.

Some of the cities have had enough,anything which doesn't look like a bicycle is assumed illegal,it probably is. In Shenzhen they are particularly aggressive,if it looks like a scooter,they are picking them up,thrown into a skip and ultimately crushed. Imagine if the police picked up a £3.5k illegal S-class e-bike and threw it into the skip....in China they stuff a Kalashnikov up your nose to ensure compliance,they make you throw it in the skip.

One of my suppliers has 8000 units in a giant shed,all unsaleable at present,he told me he is waiting until the heat dies down,but will build no more.

Ironically it has boosted the sale of e-bikes that look like bicycles,the police have no way of determining power so if it looks like a bicycle they let it on its way.

There is a powerful lobby anti to all this who argue that the e-bike is the primary method that poorly paid get to work,no e-bikes,no workers,no I-pads and I-phones,no money.

Difficult to see it happening here,only if there was an explosive growth in e-bike sales especially illegals.

KudosDave

And in China, they don't use the lights even if it's pitch black, so they can conserve power!

 

Let's hope the DfT get their act together sooner rather than later. There is absolutely no chance that the flood of HS bikes coming into the UK will be halted. They should be made legal, with the same restrictions as in Holland.

 

The term High Speed pedelecs is not helpful, these bikes are normally 350W nominal and take a lot of pedalling to get them up to the dizzying speeds of 27 or 28 miles an hour. Speeds that road bikes exceed every minute of every day.

 

All the best, David

And in China, they don't use the lights even if it's pitch black, so they can conserve power!

 

Let's hope the DfT get their act together sooner rather than later. There is absolutely no chance that the flood of HS bikes coming into the UK will be halted. They should be made legal, with the same restrictions as in Holland.

 

The term High Speed pedelecs is not helpful, these bikes are normally 350W nominal and take a lot of pedalling to get them up to the dizzying speeds of 27 or 28 miles an hour. Speeds that road bikes exceed every minute of every day.

 

All the best, David

 

David,I forget that one,you get 100 e-bikes coming at you without lights,it's difficult to find a safe haven.

Off to wear my kit car hat now.!

Dave

This place sometimes makes me consider trading in a 3 litre nissan skyline for a Trabant. After all, they'll both do 70mph. But then I remember the benefits of a little extra oomph when really needed.

 

Flud, I recall fitting xenon lights to my car, quite a few years back now. The fora hullabaloo was incredible. People were spamming out the laws on almost every thread. Constantly whining about how they were being blinded by them on the roads etc, etc, blah, blah, blah. Nothing changed and most new cars now have xenon / HID lights fitted as standard. Enough people bought them online, or had them fitted, and they became the norm. Sufficient commerce made it so and the police weren't looking. Blinded, no doubt.

 

So this will go one of two ways, in my humble opinion. If it goes your way, you'll definitely be able to say that you told us so and we'll all be scuppered. Or it will become the norm.

 

If I drive like a cnut, why would I bike any differently?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VNwWiN0H0E

 

The answer is I bike sensibly and they let me buy whatever I want to buy. They don't restrict me to buying a trabbie! Other than freedom, why do you think that is?

This place sometimes makes me consider trading in a 3 litre nissan skyline for a Trabant. After all, they'll both do 70mph. But then I remember the benefits of a little extra oomph when really needed.

 

Flud, I recall fitting xenon lights to my car, quite a few years back now. The fora hullabaloo was incredible. People were spamming out the laws on almost every thread. Constantly whining about how they were being blinded by them on the roads etc, etc, blah, blah, blah. Nothing changed and most new cars now have xenon / HID lights fitted as standard. Enough people bought them online, or had them fitted, and they became the norm. Sufficient commerce made it so and the police weren't looking. Blinded, no doubt.

 

So this will go one of two ways, in my humble opinion. If it goes your way, you'll definitely be able to say that you told us so and we'll all be scuppered. Or it will become the norm.

 

If I drive like a cnut, why would I bike any differently?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VNwWiN0H0E

 

The answer is I bike sensibly and they let me buy whatever I want to buy. They don't restrict me to buying a trabbie! Other than freedom, why do you think that is?

 

That all makes total sense, apart from you're missing the point totally!!!

 

I assume, you tax and insure your car and it has a valid MOT. If so all your comments about being a rebel and eventually the world will conform are invalid, because you're comparing apples and oranges.

 

Its not about the speed, its the fact you're riding an untax, uninsured motor vehicle in the public domain. The impact and consequences are VERY different to modifying a car illegally, ie bulb, or tinted windows etc etc.

Of course it's about the speed.

Of course it's about the speed.

 

Speed is what you want, yes - but its not the speed that makes it risky from an insurance and liability issue.

 

its the fact that you haven't got tax, insure or MOT for it that makes it illegal, not the fact that you'll be doing x MPH.

So, it is about the speed then?

 

Point taken on the rest.

I'd still argue the problem is not related to the speed. If the speed was an issue normal bicycles would be subject to tax / testing and insurance.

 

So the issue must be the power assist... ie the motor.

 

So the world is coming up with a line in the sand... which there needs to be.

 

So currently its a motor that 250w nominal power and cuts off at 15.5mph. You can go faster if you want, you just have to pedal. So its not about the speed the bicycle will do.

 

If your bicycle is more powerful than that, or doesn't have the cut off, its a motorbike in the eyes of the law so you need to tax / test and insure it.

 

Seems fair enough to me?

Fair enough then. I've no issues with lines in the sand either.

Don't forget that we were all riding round on 250w bikes when the law was 200w. We got enough critical mass that they had to change the regulations.

Don't forget that we were all riding round on 250w bikes when the law was 200w. We got enough critical mass that they had to change the regulations.

 

I'd love to agree with you that it was simply people breaking the law that encouraged the government to change it.

 

However I'm sure you'll appreciate that it simply wasn't the case.

 

In that case you had the cycle & motorcycle industry lobbying for it, and the government also in agreement that they should align themselves with world wide laws - it was just a matter of time to sort it legally.

 

With regard to more powerful eBikes, you're going against the Cycle and Motorbike lobbying groups and the government seems to have no interest in approving what are essentially un licenced mopeds.

 

So don't hold your breath for a change.

Ktm Industries

 

Think you,ve explained it better than I tried too.

Totally agree with your posts.

 

I don't think most folk realise the great position pedelecs are in, with regard to use in national parks etc.

 

It would be so easy for us to lose this privilege..

 

Good points, well explained.

 

On the issue if folk modifying their own bikes...

There is a big difference between an individual changing something and a supplier openly selling kit to build essentially illegal pedelecs.

( or convert them into illegal ones)

I,ve found it quite a shock seeing companies and individuals openly discussing it on here..

Doing something illegal is one thing,telling everyone you do is another.

( look on ebay, google dongles, its even on youtube showing what to do ???)

Edited April 29, 20169 yr by (NoLongerRegistered#15675)

I don't see why tax, insurance and mot shouldn't apply to standard bicycles. They're also road users after all. Some of them tank along at 35mph, with untested brakes.

 

Maybe they should lobby for that change too.

 

We're not the soviet union Flud. It's great to be able to use our national parks. Freely.

I don't see why tax, insurance and mot shouldn't apply to standard bicycles. They're also road users after all. Some of them tank along at 35mph, with untested brakes.

 

Maybe they should lobby for that change too.

 

We're not the soviet union Flud. It's great to be able to use our national parks. Freely.

 

So do I but its a privilege not a right on an ebike.

 

Just don't get the reasoning behind illegalising pedelecs. They are brilliant as they are. If you want high power,faster speeds just get a motorbike.

 

Would be easy to police no ebikes in country parks, impossible to differentiate legal from otherwise.

 

We are making it easy to justify.

So do I but its a privilege not a right on an ebike.

 

Just don't get the reasoning behind illegalising pedelecs. They are brilliant as they are. If you want high power,faster speeds just get a motorbike.

 

Would be easy to police no ebikes in country parks, impossible to differentiate legal from otherwise.

 

We are making it easy to justify.

 

Who's illegalising pedelecs? If anyone is going to do that, it will be you Flud. You rant over it quite a bit mate. To be fair though, that'll have about the same impact as standing on a motorway bridge shouting at the fast lane to slow down to 70mph.

 

Yes, ebikes are brilliant fun. Will they let anyone ride a motorbike through the park at 15mph? Nope, therefore it's an ebike.

 

No-one's saying go blast an ebike around your local park at 30mph. Like all things, common sense prevails. High speed ebikes are for private land, off road use. Otherwise they have a street legal option.

 

But let's be realistic, plenty will tell you you're cheating at 10mph. By your ethic, enjoy it while you can mate. eBay's selling loads this year. Especially those Chinese fat ebikes. I've seen two around here already. They're bikes, they're ridden sensibly. There is no problem. Perceive one if you so desire.

You can pump 100A through it, still legal. (although your motor would go a little bit melty/on fire)

 

Can you get 100 A from a 48 V battery? As well as the 250 W and 25 km/h remember there is a 48 V cap on maximum legal voltage.