Slightly off topic but years ago ( with demand for soldiers to carry more rounds) ballistics experts worked out how to get a seemingly small bullet ( travelling very very quickly) to have stopping power of larger counterpart. The 5 .56 mm round is teetering on instability ( they reduced turns in barrel to absolute minimum and gave bullet "odd" flight dynamics..Result it hits something and tumbles end over end..transmitting all its energy to victim.. Yes it doesn't splinter like hollow point/ soft nose/and new round mentioned but its actually the energy that does all damage.

We are talking degrees in difference of severe damage, all inflict terrible injuries.

From services point of view they must be allowed to choose the weapon and ammunition that does the job most effectively in situations they encounter.

We should also be working towards eradicating their cause but that's a different argument and will not be achieved by limiting effectiveness of services.

 

Let's all be uncivilised barbarians and go back to the middle ages yes?

Great plan, where do you draw the line?

You can't counter frightfullness by resorting to it yourself, you need to employ brains not crude violence.

Edited June 19, 20178 yr by oldgroaner

I wonder how many people in the UK are now bored with Brexit and have lost all interest.?

KudosDave

 

Flecc suggested this a while ago, and I thought the likelihood was zero. Now I'm starting to think that I was wrong, I detect a growing disinterest.

 

I think if BREXIT is just cancelled, it will come back with bigger teeth. If it's going to be ended, it needs to be done in a clever way. And that's the problem with those in charge.

Let's all be uncivilised barbarians and go back to the middle ages yes?

Great plan, where do you draw the line?

 

Yes you are right. Human race hasn't grown up yet, we are still barbarians, civilised simply means town dwelling...

Great plan, where do you draw the line?

 

Total elimination of the human race, that would solve all the planet's problems and enable it to return to health.

.

Flecc suggested this a while ago, and I thought the likelihood was zero. Now I'm starting to think that I was wrong, I detect a growing disinterest.

 

I'm quite sure boredom with the subject is setting in with the bulk of the population.

 

But that is very dangerous of course, since it leaves the politicians free to complete any sort of Brexit, however bad.

.

I accept that the best solution is to try and negate or remove the factors which motivate people into committing acts of terrorism in the first place. This isn't going to happen instantly, but that is no reason to delay trying.

 

Meanwhile, people will turn to further acts of violence and try to murder as many innocent people as possible. I see that only last night, there was a racist / terror attack, but at a mosque this time. Most, if not all, of the victims will have no responsibility for the grievances of the murderer. So, what do the security forces / police do in a situation like the recent bridge attack in London? Confronted with armed men actively engaged in a killing process and reasonably thought to be carrying explosives.

 

It would be a strange even reckless decision to attempt to stop them with non-lethal force. That would almost certainly result in death or serious injury for a police officer. So, if you are going to shoot, do you want the bullet to exit the terrorist at high velocity and to then randomly ricochet around a confined area, which is potentially packed with families of all ages? Do you just want to wound a person in the same area who simply has to press a button to kill everyone around him? I'd say that in these extreme circumstance, the only course of action is to remove the threat with minimum risk to bystanders. A soft nosed bullet is the tool for that particular job.

 

I don't think that it's just the UK who use them either. Armed, on board aircraft security officers of all nations have them so that in the event that they shoot a person, the bullet doesn't go through the aircraft fuselage, with a potential catastrophic affect.

 

These soft nosed bullets are nasty things and cause massive amounts of trauma. That is why they are banned in warfare. In the absence of an alternative, they are also highly effective in the situations described above. They are a tool for an unpleasant and dangerous job.

 

... What a brilliant response by the Muslim community in Finsbury park. Capturing the alleged perpetrator, denying him martyrdom, and then handing him over to the police. Presumably he will now eke out his days in a mental hospital or a prison for decades to come.,giving him plenty of time to regret his actions.

Paraphrasing a recent slogan. We are the many, they are the few.

Total elimination of the human race, that would solve all the planet's problems and enable it to return to health.

.

We are collectively working towards that goal flecc!

Flecc suggested this a while ago, and I thought the likelihood was zero. Now I'm starting to think that I was wrong, I detect a growing disinterest.

 

I think if BREXIT is just cancelled, it will come back with bigger teeth. If it's going to be ended, it needs to be done in a clever way. And that's the problem with those in charge.

It will come back in any case whenever the Far right think they can get away with it to place the public under their thumb.

I am surprised that Nigel Farage hasn't emerged ranting at anyone who even suggests that Brexit may be falling apart and retaking over UKIP as its white knight but he seems strangely quiet at the moment????

Perhaps he has got bored with it as well.

Will someone remind me why Brexit was a good idea,it seems ages since the referendum,actually I am exactly one year older,it was on my birthday!!!

Older and wiser,or just older !!!!

KudosDave

I am surprised that Nigel Farage hasn't emerged ranting at anyone who even suggests that Brexit may be falling apart and retaking over UKIP as its white knight but he seems strangely quiet at the moment????

Perhaps he has got bored with it as well.

Will someone remind me why Brexit was a good idea,it seems ages since the referendum,actually I am exactly one year older,it was on my birthday!!!

Older and wiser,or just older !!!!

KudosDave

 

It spawned longest thread in history and gave OG chance to write his memoirs, and probably brought Tory government down ??? So all in all not a bad start...or finish ...???Who knows anymore..

Its made us all much more politically aware and united so many of us, especially on this forum..( you decide the ironic statement)

Edited June 19, 20178 yr by Zlatan

It spawned longest thread in history and gave OG chance to write his memoirs, and probably brought Tory government down ??? So all in all not a bad start...or finish ...???Who knows anymore..

Its made us all much more politically aware and united so many of us, especially on this forum..( you decide the ironic statement)

Actually I haven't started on them yet.........The best is yet to come!

From the Telegraph

"

Michel Barnier warns Britain faces Brexit 'consequences' and EU is not prepared to make 'concessions'

Obviously we "showed 'em" today....start how you mean to go on, eh?

After all Davis wants a "Hard Brexit" and the only way surer to get that would be to send Sir Nigel.

 

And the other papers seem to have reported the opposite, that the talks were constructive.

From the Daily Mail, though it only made the bottom of the front page

"

'We will NEVER work against the UK': EU's chief negotiator insists a 'fair' Brexit deal is within reach after first round of the battle of Brussels sees him agree with David Davis on how to tackle the talks

We are obviously going to be bombarded with Fake News every day

The Guardian said

"Britain has abandoned attempts to force the EU to start talks on a future trade deal immediately, and instead the UK’s “exit bill”, and other issues, will come first. David and Barnier have agreed a two-page schedule for talks (pdf), including the dates for five rounds of negotiations stretching into October. As the EU demanded, this involves the “exit bill”, the rights of EU nationals and Ireland being discussed before talks on a future trade deal start later in the process. Davis rejected claims that this amounted to a climbdown, arguing that later trade talks will take place in parallel with talks on the exit arrangements , but there is no doubt that the UK has had to back down from its original demands.

The Independent has got it right for once

"

And so begins the most achingly stupid political project the UK has engaged in in living memory.

 

You’ll be thinking at this point that I’m talking about Brexit, and it’s true that it fits the bill.

 

But, in point of fact, I’m actually talking about just part of it: the insistence that Britain must leave the world’s largest single market, made up of more than 500 million potential customers.

 

Looked at in those terms, you really would have to question the collective sanity of any country turning its back on such a thing but that, it seems, is what the British Government is preparing to do.

Edited June 19, 20178 yr by oldgroaner

Things are bad when this woman starts making sense ...

 

"KATIE HOPKINS: Britain is at boiling point and if we want to step back from the brink we need to stop screaming at each other like kids and start talking together like adults "

????

Things are bad when this woman starts making sense ...

 

"KATIE HOPKINS: Britain is at boiling point and if we want to step back from the brink we need to stop screaming at each other like kids and start talking together like adults "

????

She could make an excellent start by taking her own advice and not being a right wing propaganda agent.

She could make an excellent start by taking her own advice and not being a right wing propaganda agent.

 

To be fair I think she,s a lone wolf. She says controversial things against and for anybody to stay in lime light.

She has a point here though OG.

It seems that 'Brexit' talks have got underway but I don't expect to learn anything for some time. Sadly, while those talks go on elsewhere, here in the UK we have been subjected to another apparently 'lone-wolf' terrorist attack in London. This time, the perpetrator is a white man, British as far as I understand, and his target was a large group of muslims, just coming out from a prayer meeting during the last week of Ramadan.

 

The 'nutter' who committed this atrocity has most likely had his mind warped by the concentrated barrage of racist lies from the tory right-wing, UKIP, Britain First, the tory media wing including its leading player, the BBC. Remember Thomas Mair? he was another 'lone-wolf' nutcase whose mind was warped by the same drivel emanating from these sources:

 

 

 

Regrettably, for hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of our citizens, 'Brexit' was never about the economy because the average voter doesn't understand economics, markets, currencies or how company pension schemes invest contributions. We need to call it what it is and that is now as it was then, racism - that's why they voted to leave the EU. It may not have been colour prejudice - inspired racism for those voters but rather, a hatred by some of other Europeans coming to the UK and performing various types of work at prices far less than those charged by the self-employed.

 

Allied to that, there is the muslim terrorist threat to which the entire western world has been subjected over recent years so those of a racist persuasion did not want to see any more muslims entering the UK....even though muslims come in a variety of colours and speak various languages. Farage and his ilk were the saviours of those Islamophobes so they voted to support racist policies.

 

Everything else was just dross to salve the consciences of those who voted for the racist loudmouths who presented the public with 'Brexit'. The 'taking back sovereignty' and 'controlling our borders' were just total nonsense as were the lies about the power of the European Court; the lies about unelected, faceless people in Brussels making up rules and laws we don't like, didn't want, etc.....it was all lies, beginning to end and they even had the audacity to spread some of those lies all over a bus.

 

In addition, we were forever being told about muslims being radicalised and that is why they became terrorists. Now, perhaps we need to give more thought to the other Thomas Mairs and Darren Osbornes who may be out there, being radicalised by the British media and far-right politicians. We may ourselves have created a monster.

 

 

Is this really the way we want to deal with our terrorist problem? Will we somehow be better able to manage that problem by ignoring and taking no responsibility for the acts of mindless, murdering white Britons? Will deserting the EU make things better with regard to the fight against terror? Somehow, I think we make ourselves more vulnerable by isolating ourselves from a large group of European nations, all of which share the same problems of terrorism. We seem to be descending towards hell.

 

It troubles me that most recently, we have seen this beleaguered government form a new political cabal with a party known to have great sympathy with the NI Orange order and various loyalist terror groupings which risks the Good Friday agreement. In these pages, we have read about more efficient ammunition which might be permitted against possible terrorists although it is illegal in warfare. While I can understand the case made by the proponents of that type of ammunition, I cannot in all conscience see that it would be any more effective in ending terrorism on our islands than the approved ammunition currently in use.

 

Neither bullets nor missiles or bombs will resolve the terrorist threat so we really need to expend lots more energy and money in finding a solution. Being best mates with the USA, Israel and Saudi Arabia is not exactly conducive to improving relations with the people driven by such anger and idealogical hatred for western countries that they become suicide bombers.

Am I the only one who thinks that if their lives were better in their own countries, perhaps those who aspire to terrorism and become radicalised would have better things to do than dream of becoming a martyr through suicide?

 

Tom

Edited June 19, 20178 yr by oldtom

Once again this latest outrage is committed by an outsider, a man from Wales who even hired the vehicle there. Previous attacks have been by men from the West Midlands and Bedfordshire, even Scotland, and one who was currently in London had spent most of his life elsewhere.

 

I wish they'd keep their bigotry in their home areas, virtually all of us in London get on well together and we don't want them here, whether attacking or not. Their ideas are not ours.

.

To be fair I think she,s a lone wolf. She says controversial things against and for anybody to stay in lime light.

She has a point here though OG.

Agreed but she needs to see that she is guilty of being a cause rather than an answer.

Edited June 19, 20178 yr by oldgroaner

UK - laughing stock!

 

Ok, this rather sums up day1 of our negotiating posture:

 

 

I'll bet nobody thought it could get any more embarrassing!

 

Tom

I wonder how many Brexiters will agree £60 billion divorce bill,seems a large sum when we can't pay £2 billion more into our NHS or pay for our own social care.

A friend of mine in Greece pointed out to me a big problem that nobody has discussed yet. My friend has lived in Greece many years,sadly he is not well now and needs frequent treatment at the local health clinic,which is covered under the E111 deal.

There are 3.2 million UK expats in EU countries,these are mostly retired older people. Unless the E111 agreement continues,which is unlikely, these people will have to take private medical insurance,which because they are old will be prohibitively expensive or they will have to return to the UK ,putting more pressure on our NHS.

Ok ,the same applies to the 1.2 million EU people settled in the UK,but these people are mainly young and less likely to need medical help.

It may be that we will have to pick up the bill for our citizens abroad but this is 3 million paid for by one country. The 1.2 million could be supported and spread between 27 countries.

We have to be careful what we agree to in these UK v EU negotiations.

KudosDave

UK - laughing stock!

 

Ok, this rather sums up day1 of our negotiating posture:

 

[ATTACH=full]19800[/ATTACH]

 

I'll bet nobody thought it could get any more embarrassing!

 

Tom

 

So much for the Theresa May team taking a strong stance. But we knew that we would be the losers and have started on the back foot.

KudosDave

I wonder how many Brexiters will agree £60 billion divorce bill,seems a large sum when we can't pay £2 billion more into our NHS or pay for our own social care.

A friend of mine in Greece pointed out to me a big problem that nobody has discussed yet. My friend has lived in Greece many years,sadly he is not well now and needs frequent treatment at the local health clinic,which is covered under the E111 deal.

There are 3.2 million UK expats in EU countries,these are mostly retired older people. Unless the E111 agreement continues,which is unlikely, these people will have to take private medical insurance,which because they are old will be prohibitively expensive or they will have to return to the UK ,putting more pressure on our NHS.

Ok ,the same applies to the 1.2 million EU people settled in the UK,but these people are mainly young and less likely to need medical help.

It may be that we will have to pick up the bill for our citizens abroad but this is 3 million paid for by one country. The 1.2 million could be supported and spread between 27 countries.

We have to be careful what we agree to in these UK v EU negotiations.

KudosDave

... Some of us were well aware of this, certainly the readers pages in magazines like French Property and similar titles have been voicing it for months.

UK - laughing stock!

 

Ok, this rather sums up day1 of our negotiating posture:

 

[ATTACH=full]19800[/ATTACH]

 

I'll bet nobody thought it could get any more embarrassing!

 

Tom

.. the good news is that those papers and headlines from yesterday are now holding the kitchen waste , so need not be referred to again.

Fro the Telegraph this morning

"

Slamming the door on soft BrexitDavid Davis and Michel Barnier confirm Britain will leave the single market and customs union as talks begin.

That's it then, negotiations didn't take long did they? Davis and co might as well come home after a job well done, but I thought wars weren't won by surrendering on the spot?

Silly me

That's it then, negotiations didn't take long did they?

 

we will ask for a transition period.

at the end of it, I expect we'll move toward a customs union or a new referendum.