It's true, our bikes on the continent have not moved much in price, we sell to our O/S dealers in US$. I think a few of us are already considering making bikes here, the problem is, as you point out, that most of the components are made in Asia and we would still buy those in US$, so the gain would be relatively small.

 

Did someone mention making something in this country?

 

At least one or two in the trade - if not most of the trade members on here - are starting to get it.

 

We have the likes of KTM Col - a bike guy - in regular contact with a broker and checking exchange rates to, wait for it, eight decimal places.

 

Ludicrous - you are supposed to be entrepreneurs, not currency speculators.

 

KudosDave posts remain propaganda at every opportunity, although his oft-stated concern for the poor worker in this country looks less than sincere given his business is based on goods made at slave labour rates in China.

 

Market conditions may be changing, you need to think on your feet and use your business nous to profit from those changes.

 

Or go skint.

 

No one said it's going to be easy, only the strongest and sharpest will survive.

market condition is changing as a result of brexit, nothing else, and customers are punished though not their fault, sellers are punished for 'not having contingency plan'. We can still avoid the whole impending recession and inflation by coming to term that the brexit is a bad move for all but a few isolationists and career politicians.

Hi Rob,

 

You are a little out of date with your thoughts on slave labour in China. Labour is still not as expensive as in the UK for factory workers but for skilled technicians the wages are gaining very fast. We had our bikes made in Germany for one pretty disasterous year and they were slightly cheaper than having them made in Kunshan near Shanghai and not nearly as good.

 

I would like to start making bikes here but unfortunately the figures don't stack up. We would need to buy vertually all parts from Asia in dollars so no saving there and getting decent labour in the UK is pretty well impossible. I have been trying to recruit a single bike mechanic for over a month so far, so the thought of finding enough people to man even a small factory is daunting to say the least. Another big problem, since Brexit, is the flow of decent labour from Eastern Europe has started to dry up.

 

There are a lot of very sharp and strong entrepreneurs in the EBike market, they are the ones that survive. If there was an effective way to manufacture here they would already be doing it. In fact two that I know of have already taken the plunge but from what I hear are finding it pretty tough.

 

All the best, David

Edited July 30, 20169 yr by Wisper Bikes

Not forgetting also....... A lot of these price rises will also be going on stuff that was purchased at the old rates, thus even yet more profit on that stuff.

 

Yam dude.....first of all Kudos is not raising its prices on current or new stock because that stock was bought at 1.47 £ v dollar,so we are not profiteering on the back of Brexit,though it is tempting to do so.

I suspect Halfords is reducing the price on their e-bike to get some sales and get some money in,I bet they are not making much profit at that price,maybe even a loss.

I am lucky that only 5% of my revenue comes from bikes,I am very interested in electric bikes and find them an interesting product but you would not enter the e-bike world solely to make money.

Since Brexit all bike sales are difficult,all big ticket items have taken a dive.

I just don't know where you get the conception that electric bike sellers are making big margins on these bikes,I try to get new dealers who are primarily sports bike sellers,sellers of Pinarello/Bianchi do have fabulous margins on those type of bikes and often reject the much lower margins that I can offer on electric bikes,hence why it's so difficult to find new dealers in low population areas.

Yam dude,if you really feel that e-bike retailing is a licence to print money then come and join us,I would welcome a new dealer in Somerset.

KudosDave

Edited July 30, 20169 yr by Kudoscycles

Hi Rob,

 

You are a little out of date with your thoughts on slave labour in China. Labour is still not as expensive as in the UK for factory workers but for skilled technicians the wages are gaining very fast. We had our bikes made in Germany for one pretty disasterous year and they were slightly cheaper than having them made in Kunshan near Shanghai and not nearly as good.

 

I would like to start making bikes here but unfortunately the figures don't stack up. We would need to buy vertually all parts from Asia in dollars so no saving there and getting decent labour in the UK is pretty well impossible. I have been trying to recruit a single bike mechanic for over a month so far, so the thought of finding enough people to man even a small factory is daunting to say the least. Another big problem, since Brexit, is the flow of decent labour from Eastern Europe has started to dry up.

 

There are a lot of very sharp and strong entrepreneurs in the EBike market, they are the ones that survive. If there was an effective way to manufacture here they would already be doing it. In fact two that I know of have already taken the plunge but from what I hear are finding it pretty tough.

 

All the best, David

 

There appears to be near panic from those whose businesses are based on a cheap import model at the prospect of Brexit.

 

Obviously, they weren't manufacturing here per-Brexit because it was more profitable to do so elsewhere.

 

But there are two responses to change - adapt to it, or try to resist it.

 

We've gone a long way down the road of importing everything on the cheap, so reversing that will not be a fast process, will never fully happen, and doesn't need to - there's nothing wrong with importing some goods.

 

But a re-balance may be required.

 

Not just in ebikes, but I can see a first step where it may become cheaper to repair a failed component rather than replace with new.

Did someone mention making something in this country?

 

At least one or two in the trade - if not most of the trade members on here - are starting to get it.

 

We have the likes of KTM Col - a bike guy - in regular contact with a broker and checking exchange rates to, wait for it, eight decimal places.

 

Ludicrous - you are supposed to be entrepreneurs, not currency speculators.

 

KudosDave posts remain propaganda at every opportunity, although his oft-stated concern for the poor worker in this country looks less than sincere given his business is based on goods made at slave labour rates in China.

 

Market conditions may be changing, you need to think on your feet and use your business nous to profit from those changes.

 

Or go skint.

 

No one said it's going to be easy, only the strongest and sharpest will survive.

 

Rob....I am very respectful of your posts,don't always agree but there is respect.

I spoke to one company who are selling a mountain style bike,assembled in the UK, at about £1700.00 but that bike is no better than my similar bike at about £1200.00,I just cannot see how they can compete,there is no cache on a UK built bike,I don't think they sold many.

I was the first in the after market performance auto industry to go to China,it's not all about price....I made a product in the UK that needed machining/fabrication/painting/assembly. I might order 500 of the product,at every stage in the UK,I heard excuses on delays,2 months later I might get 200,thrown in a box,scratched.....don't chase me,you are not my only customer,Fred assembles your bits-he's on leave back in a couple of weeks,you can have the rest when I've got time

Contrast that with China....all made in one factory,packed well in bespoke box,properly labelled,on time,no excuses,beautifully made and £7.00 cost against £20.00... Where would you buy?

Having said that I am moving some product back to the UK,some UK manufacturers have improved enormously,they want the work and have invested in NC to reduce costs,the cost difference is less and we can control easier.

There still is cheap labour in China but skilled labour wages are climbing fast....which is why many of my suppliers are investing in NC and robots to maintain quality and costs. I don't know how they raise finance so easily but they are not frightened to invest.

The problem with Brexit is nobody,including May,knows what Brexit means,there is no plan,no decisions,so businessmen like me cannot make decisions.....I am usually a very decisive guy but Brexit has left me so uncertain as to how to plan,the safest route is just to put 10% on everything.

I must be honest that there is an element of spite in my mind........

YOU GUY'S WHO VOTED BREXIT CAN DAMN WELL PAY FOR IT.

KudosDave

Edited July 30, 20169 yr by Kudoscycles

Oh dear...... someones not happy.... a disagree right back at ya.

But that's the thing about the truth...... it often hurts those that would like to bury that truth.

What a complete load of BS, come and sit in my shoes pal...

Rob....I am very respectful of your posts,don't always agree but there is respect.

I spoke to one company who are selling a mountain style bike at about £1700.00 but that bike is no better than my similar bike at about £1200.00,I just cannot see how they can compete,there is no cache on a UK built bike,I don't think they sold any.

 

Respect here too, Dave.

 

It's a simple matter of fact you will have forgotten more about running an ebike business than I will ever know.

 

My simple point is the business landscape may be changing, so an import and resale model that worked (for those who knew how to do it) previously, may not work in future.

Rob....I am very respectful of your posts,don't always agree but there is respect.

I spoke to one company who are selling a mountain style bike at about £1700.00 but that bike is no better than my similar bike at about £1200.00,I just cannot see how they can compete,there is no cache on a UK built bike,I don't think they sold any.

 

I understand they had to drop the price to £1,299 to sell them through Dave.

Respect here too, Dave.

 

It's a simple matter of fact you will have forgotten more about running an ebike business than I will ever know.

 

My simple point is the business landscape may be changing, so an import and resale model that worked (for those who knew how to do it) previously, may not work in future.

 

Hi Rob,

 

Unfortunately unless the £ recovers and we get back to the status quo, for the next few years I think it's more likely that we in the UK will just be poorer and will not be able to afford what we could in the past pre Brexit.

 

It's unlikely that the import of goods will end anytime soon.

 

All the best, David

Edited July 30, 20169 yr by Wisper Bikes

Respect here too, Dave.

 

It's a simple matter of fact you will have forgotten more about running an ebike business than I will ever know.

 

My simple point is the business landscape may be changing, so an import and resale model that worked (for those who knew how to do it) previously, may not work in future.

 

That may be true for the performance parts world but that is constantly evolving,HMRC don't have a solution for the hundreds of fraudulent sellers on e-bay and Amazon,who are selling £ billions of product into the UK without charging duty or vat.

At the moment it is very competitive and we are all invading competitors products,high street sellers must be struggling,it's all about low overhead on-line selling.

I am still a newbie to the e-bike world and constantly learning,surprisingly its a fashion conscious product,not just in colour but also spec and type,it's easy to get caught out and have the wrong product at the wrong time of year.

Ford motor Co is building the largest car assembly plant in the world,I think it is in Nanjing,they are even building bespoke ships to move Fiestas and Focuses around the world,they still make engines in the UK but I suspect that Brexit will finish that.

KudosDave

Hi Rob,

 

Unfortunately unless the £ recovers and we get back to the status quo, for the next few years I think it's more likely that we in the UK will just be poorer and will not be able to afford what we could in the past.

 

It's unlikely that the import of goods will end anytime soon.

 

All the best, David

 

Not being able to afford what we could in the past may well happen.

 

But the positive side of that is it equates to unsatisfied demand - people will still want what they used to be able to afford.

 

Unsatisfied demand is a sales opportunity.

 

The question is how to fill that demand at a price the customer can afford.

 

If my dream R&M ebike goes from ludicrously expensive to completely unaffordable, there is an opportunity there for someone to supply me with a dream ebike at a price I can afford.

Hi Rob,

 

We are currently working with Riese and Müller to find a way of reducing prices to pre Brexit or there abouts.

 

On a brighter note (for me!) I have seen the 2017 bikes, they are amazing. They will be available from Monday. Top of the range RM bikes are moving to over €7,000, (New Delite with 2 X 500Wh batteries) a long way short of the most expensive on the market, but if you want an individually hand made bike built to your specifications, they don't get much better.

 

All the best, David

something tells me that everyone gets less for their money until the next general election when this comedy is going to be reversed.

Hi Rob,

 

We are currently working with Riese and Müller to find a way of reducing prices to pre Brexit or there abouts.

 

On a brighter note (for me!) I have seen the 2017 bikes, they are amazing. They will be available from Monday. Top of the range RM bikes are moving to over €7,000, (New Delite with 2 X 500Wh batteries) a long way short of the most expensive on the market, but if you want an individually hand made bike built to your specifications, they don't get much better.

 

All the best, David

Anything with inter grated battery?

I post on Monday when I get all the details.

 

All the best, David

Gawd..... I see the poverty stricken dealers are still claiming what little money they make. Maybe we should have a whip round for em.

 

I've been around the block too many times to take at face value anything a salesman says..... and you dealers are salesmen, you're only on this forum to flog your products.

I hear BS from sales people all the time..... My car & m/c insurance goes up by £50 to £70 every year and they have all sorts of reasons why this is so. But when i tell them i can get it elsewhere cheaper, all of a sudden they can miraculously do for the same price as last year.

When i buy my cars & motorcycles, the salesmen claim its the best deal i'll ever get..... after searching round and then haggling, all of a sudden i get thousands off..... and i can guarantee they're still making good profit.

 

You dealers are like any other business, you're looking to max your profits any way possible and i totally believe that some have raised prices by more than the pound has dropped and i also totally believe that some have made those price hikes even on stuff that was bought at the old rate.

 

So save the 'poor us' stories for those naive enough to believe it.

Gawd..... I see the poverty stricken dealers are still claiming what little money they make. Maybe we should have a whip round for em.

 

Too cynical Yamdude. In my experience none of them who exclusively sell e-bikes in the UK are driving luxury cars or are wealthy. I've seen a long convoy of them fail over the years despite often good product. Generally they've been the victims of combinations of our small market, the excess of competition relative to that market, the long winter period and the UK.s climate variability.

 

Some only get going and/or survive due to being part of a much larger profitable organisation. Kudos for example is linked to Dave's successful Rallye Design motor sport company, and Powacycle are part of Akhter Computers, a major supplier of IT systems to the education sector.

 

Both make very much more from their other businesses than the e-bike side.

 

And even the big boys struggle. Giant, when they were the largest bicycle company in the world in the early 2000s had to stop making the successful Lafree series since after six years of trying they failed make any profit. So they tried downmarket and failed again, finally settling on cheaper to make but higher price e-bikes.

.

Too cynical Yamdude. In my experience none of them who exclusively sell e-bikes in the UK are driving luxury cars or are wealthy. I've seen a long convoy of them fail over the years despite often good product, Generally they've been the victims of combinations of our small market, the excess of competition relative to that market, the long winter period and the UK.s climate variability.

 

Some only get going and/or survive due to being part of a much larger profitable organisation. Kudos for example is linked to Dave's successful Rallye Design motor sport company, and Powacycle are part of Akhter Computers, a major supplier of IT systems to the education sector.

 

Both make very much more from their other businesses than the e-bike side.

.

 

Well i am cynical about salesman and businesses in general...... some are better than others, but thats about the best i can say.

No one on here is going to change my mind about that.

The cycling nation bikes are from 1000 € to 9000 € because their market, Europe, is bigger. Where are the Chinese made "UK" bikes at my LBS? I think your bikes are too similar. You are all fighting for the same market segment with unoriginal products and aiming for the same price point. And limiting your market and ambitions to your tiny little island and not Europe which you are supposed to belong to still...

Well i am cynical about salesman and businesses in general...... some are better than others, but thats about the best i can say.

No one on here is going to change my mind about that.

 

So am I cynical about business in general, unsurprising for someone who knows the motor trade in depth from the inside!

 

I was just illustrating what I know about the e-bike business over the years, and in consequence I would never get into it. There are easier and much less risky ways to make money.

.

Well i am cynical about salesman and businesses in general...... some are better than others, but thats about the best i can say.

No one on here is going to change my mind about that.

 

Without salesmen and business men we would all still be living in mud huts. Look around you, everything you own is due to the hard work of businessmen and salesmen throughout the ages.

 

I assume that you have a Yamaha? In that case you must understand the huge difference sales and businessmen have made to better your life. Without them Yamaha would never have existed and without your phone/tablet/lap top you would not have the means to make your views public.

 

We are not all choir boys I agree, but everyone is free to make informed decisions about who they buy their goods from.

 

You say that "no one is going to change your mind" so I understand you will never accept the reality of the situation, I won't try to change your mind again.

 

No hard feelings!

 

Kind regards, David

Edited July 30, 20169 yr by Wisper Bikes

Hi Trex we have seriously over taken the magic number. Our components are sourced from all over Asia. Most bikes built in China use generic frames and drive systems that are available to anyone.

 

There is another way, our 905 and 705 frames and solid forks are ours, designed and tooled by Amps, our software is ours and even our EN15194 certification is ours.

 

Most bikes comming in from China share genetic certification, a huge percentage of those bikes are not properly certified. A real worry for those who retail them.

 

There are a few of us do it properly and offer somthing completely different and a little bit special.

 

I am certain the Market is much bigger than 30,000, we cannot be responsible for such a substantial percentage of U.K. Ebike sales!

 

It's still tough out there!

the market in France was 35,000 in 2014 and there are even more dealers there than in the UK. You are one of the veterans of the industry and your bikes always strike me as very well thought out, so I am not surprised that you go over the magic number. For a proper e-bike manufacturer, what are we talking about? sales of 5,000 + units a year? that only employs about 20 people. That's the nature of cottage industries.

Edited July 30, 20169 yr by trex

Thanks Trex, we are not up to 5000 yet but are gradually getting there. We are certainly a cottage industry!

 

All the best, David