If you were a regular on ES then you will find that the 30Q is a poor choice of cell to use and cycle life isn't very good, 30Q suffers from self discharge after only about 50 cycles. Currently there is a very good thread going on over the other side of the pond and a couple of members are doing cycle testing up to 700 full cycles to see which of the popular best cells are better. LG MJI and M36 are showing to be top of the class, Panasonic /Sanyo bottom of the class. The Samsung 29E is also proving to be a top cell.

 

You try telling that to Jimmy! I got a good natured ribbing for choosing the mj1 over the 30q!

You try telling that to Jimmy! I got a good natured ribbing for choosing the mj1 over the 30q!

Jimmy does not recommend 30Q cells now lol

Kirstin have a look at the ES thread for cell ageing the 30Q is poor compared the LG 3500's, the MJ1 is a top 10a cell much better then the GA.

Sam 50E showing good results retaning 96% capacity after 250 cycles and matching the LG MJ1 & M36.

 

For price and performance alone a lot of the ES guys are still recommending and preferring the 29E, albeit in larger P groups.

Edited March 6, 20206 yr by Nealh

im wondering if a loose bms plug could be a seperate issue. I am an idiot ,i have ADHD and can miss very obvious things.last year when this all started and i was using my multimeter to get cell voltage readings.i completely missed seeing i could read them from the back of the plug.i kept jamming the tester into the plug holes.now some of the bms pins dont probably grip as tight, as the plug doesnt fit tight anymore.(its not come out even slightly ,when ive had a cut out tho). Any thoughts cheers

 

Likely I would say that jamming the probes in to the female sense connector may well have opened them up a bit and bad contact is being made with the male pins ( I use a pair of pins to push in and touch with my probes), more evident when current is asked or a jolt/bump may give a false reading causing the BMS to shut down.

The BMS my well be ok and you might be best to replace the 10s jst connector and splice and shrink a new one to the sense wires.

Edited March 5, 20206 yr by Nealh

Random cutouts are the worst as they can be a bugger to diagnose. With a bbsxx the easiest way is beg or borrow (If you can) a battery, then a controller, then a harness, then an lcd. By swapping out each in order you can easily pinpoint the issue

hi kristen.i have no one to try this, but i do have an identical display the latest version 850c. i ll try it but i think the voltage sag is more likely the battery deterioration. some cell groups are unable to charge beyond approx 40.08v while others can reach 42v. Perhaps they sag worse as well as having less capacity. battery only 1500+ miles,maybe 70 cycles. im inclined to think the cut outs are due to loosened pins that nealh suggests may be affected occasionally by a high Amp demand.

Edited March 6, 20206 yr by minexplorer

Jimmy does not recommend 30Q cells now lol

When i bought a 30q battery a year an half ago ,the 30q was considered the dogs bo##ocks. now im hearing its just bo##ocks...sigh

more evident when current is asked or a jolt/bump may give a false reading causing the BMS to shut down.

Yes good point nealh would explain the randomness. i can see the female connectors undersides are exposed luckily. i can try press them tighter.

 

 

For 14s you need at least I would say a Meanwell HLG - 120h - 54A, the A is important as this designates the model as having current & voltage adjustment. For this model it is max 2.5a in put current and all A models have +/- 10% voltage adjustment above and below 54v.

 

https://www.powersuppliesonline.co.uk/power-supplies/led-lighting-power-supplies/hlg-series-mean-well/hlg-120h-54a-124-2w-54v-2-3a-led-lighting-power-supply.html

 

https://www.powersuppliesonline.co.uk/power-supplies/led-lighting-power-supplies/hlg-series-mean-well/hlg-150h-54a-151-2w-54v-2-8a-led-lighting-power-supply.html

hi nealh. So if i buy say the 2.8a model i assume it will charge slower than the 5a charger the battery came with.thats fine. How do u set it up tho, to ensure each cell group only reaches a say max of 4.08v or 4.10v. do you have to multiply this by x14 and then set the HLG to that 57v odd, or do you set it to the 4.10v whatever. im a little confused as its not a bike charger,does it charge the seperate cell groups until they have all have reached the designated voltage u set then?thanks

It like a normal common charger it carries out constant voltage and constant current charging, similar to a generic charger it doesn't carry out any balancing that is left to the BMS. You set the max voltage you want your battery to reach 57.4v for 4.1v, once it detects the voltage level it will stop. If the cells when discharged are pretty much balanced then they should in theory remain balanced if the cells are all good, the issue we know is that 30Q isn't a great cell and that self discharge and poor cycle ageing isn't the best. This isn't just a recent thing and has been known for quite a while.

In your case you have good cell groups and bad cells groups so no matter what charger you use they are never going to be balanced whether you use 4.1v or 4.2v per cell group as you have one group that refuses to go above 40.8, that cell group is poor and will have a higher IR then the others sag is indicative of this.

In your case you have good cell groups and bad cells groups so no matter what charger you use they are never going to be balanced whether you use 4.1v or 4.2v per cell group as you have one group that refuses to go above 40.8, that cell group is poor and will have a higher IR then the others sag is indicative of this.

thanks for that explanation nealh. regarding your second sentence, is it worth getting one of these chargers after all then and trying to get all cell groups to 4.1v? would it make any difference compared to the charger i have taking some to 4.20v whilst others may be 4.05 or 4.08 etc. my finger is poised over buy.

it may be after a cpl of charges they can all reach 4.1v. i had a group that wouldnt go above 4.08 first time i charged manually,but then went over 4.2v the second time. the battery has been sitting around a long time half charged. those low cells may come up to 4.10 with a few charges. rain preventing me cracking on with testing fully yet.

Edited March 7, 20206 yr by minexplorer

The reason I bought one was because I can alter the current charge as well as the voltage easier, the ali shell is one large heatsink so my one barely gets luke warm.

The reason I bought one was because I can alter the current charge as well as the voltage easier, the ali shell is one large heatsink so my one barely gets luke warm.

hi nealh ,i get that. My question tho is Earlier you discussed that it would be better if all the cell groups were charged to what the lowest could hold .Rather than higgledy piggledy final voltages. But It sounded as if you were then saying it wont make any improvement to performance. So im now confused again and dont know whether its worth paying out for one.

i noticed last year when u told me of the manual method of balancing cell groups i did that.then i put the battery on a full balance charge and it settled them all at 4.1v. for the first time the battery lasted all the way down to the 42v LVC and even dipping below, even with bursts of WOT.

Edited March 7, 20206 yr by minexplorer

i noticed last year when u told me of the manual method of balancing cell groups i did that.then i put the battery on a full balance charge and it settled them all at 4.1v. for the first time the battery lasted all the way down to the 42v LVC and even dipping below, even with bursts of WOT.

 

How long did the 4.1v balance maintain it self after wards without further intervention ?

 

A lower charge current will be better for cell life and should be for balance (when not making use of the BMS balance feature) as it is a lower current being introduced so less of a rush for voltage to quickly rise.

Any low charging voltage is fraught with cell balance possibly becoming unbalanced, more so with cells that are already different in charge level voltages.

Going back to #19 can you show a pic of the chargers internal pcb.

How long did the 4.1v balance maintain it self after wards without further intervention ?

 

A lower charge current will be better for cell life and should be for balance (when not making use of the BMS balance feature) as it is a lower current being introduced so less of a rush for voltage to quickly rise.

Any low charging voltage is fraught with cell balance possibly becoming unbalanced, more so with cells that are already different in charge level voltages.

Hi nealh,It eventually went out again. could be some cell groups lost a little charge over days sitting around causing imbalance to return.i notice the display shows the voltage is holding tho. So u think the lower 2.5Amp charge current (mines 5Amp)combined with setting to only reach 4.05-4.10 should do a good job of keeping them even ,if i understand right? three square blue components with adjustable screws.2 marked W 102 122 T ,1 marked W 502 121 T ??

Edited March 7, 20206 yr by minexplorer

Tbh knowing some of the cells are self discharging then I doubt it will remain balanced at all, so you might as well continue going to 4.2v per cell.

Because chargers only use cc/cv they can't regulate cells voltages, these can only remain stable and balanced if all are good to start with and remain good.

I think it is the case that 30Q is for sur now deemed not to be a good choice to select over other cells.

 

The 3 Blue marked VR's are for voltage regulation and current regulation, whether they actual will do so I don't know. The one marked VR4 at the top on it's own will be the main one to try and adjust for voltage. If you do try it make a note of how much of a turn you make, a 1/4 turn will usually make a significant voltage change one way or the other (anti c/w to go lower 7 c/w to go higher). I set my meter up with probes on the charger output connector and watch the meter whilst making adjustments to the VR.

 

The VR/C5 (C5 may denote current 5a ) near the coil is used to adjust the charge current as the the PCB track has continuity to the shunt, again once and if you try adjusting voltage set your meter to read current and adjust the current VR/C5.

 

On the meter leave the Black in the com & put the Red in the 10adc socket, turn the dial to 10A reading and place your probes on the charger output connector as you would to test voltage ( you may get a small light spark as you touch the Black probe to gnd ). You meter should read 5a and it should decrease as you turn VR/C5 anti c/w.

Tbh knowing some of the cells are self discharging then I doubt it will remain balanced at all, so you might as well continue going to 4.2v per cell.

Because chargers only use cc/cv they can't regulate cells voltages, these can only remain stable and balanced if all are good to start with and remain good.

I think it is the case that 30Q is for sur now deemed not to be a good choice to select over other cells.

 

The 3 Blue marked VR's are for voltage regulation and current regulation, whether they actual will do so I don't know. The one marked VR4 at the top on it's own will be the main one to try and adjust for voltage. If you do try it make a note of how much of a turn you make, a 1/4 turn will usually make a significant voltage change one way or the other (anti c/w to go lower 7 c/w to go higher). I set my meter up with probes on the charger output connector and watch the meter whilst making adjustments to the VR.

 

The VR/C5 (C5 may denote current 5a ) near the coil is used to adjust the charge current as the the PCB track has continuity to the shunt, again once and if you try adjusting voltage set your meter to read current and adjust the current VR/C5.

 

On the meter leave the Black in the com & put the Red in the 10adc socket, turn the dial to 10A reading and place your probes on the charger output connector as you would to test voltage ( you may get a small light spark as you touch the Black probe to gnd ). You meter should read 5a and it should decrease as you turn VR/C5 anti c/w.

thanks for all the help nealh ill try those suggestions on adjustment out today.ive still yet to do the test to see if the cells/which cells self discharge, after being fully charged. on that note all batteries lose a bit of charge with storage.im assuming its just it shouldnt be a noticable amount over a few days. would slowing the charging speed to 3 or 4 amps( if possible )help balancing as you suggested earlier. especially if it can be tuned to not exceed 4.05-4.10 per cell.

Edited March 8, 20206 yr by minexplorer

Tbh knowing some of the cells are self discharging then I doubt it will remain balanced at all, so you might as well continue going to 4.2v per cell.

Because chargers only use cc/cv they can't regulate cells voltages, these can only remain stable and balanced if all are good to start with and remain good.

I think it is the case that 30Q is for sur now deemed not to be a good choice to select over other cells.

 

The 3 Blue marked VR's are for voltage regulation and current regulation, whether they actual will do so I don't know. The one marked VR4 at the top on it's own will be the main one to try and adjust for voltage. If you do try it make a note of how much of a turn you make, a 1/4 turn will usually make a significant voltage change one way or the other (anti c/w to go lower 7 c/w to go higher). I set my meter up with probes on the charger output connector and watch the meter whilst making adjustments to the VR.

 

The VR/C5 (C5 may denote current 5a ) near the coil is used to adjust the charge current as the the PCB track has continuity to the shunt, again once and if you try adjusting voltage set your meter to read current and adjust the current VR/C5.

 

On the meter leave the Black in the com & put the Red in the 10adc socket, turn the dial to 10A reading and place your probes on the charger output connector as you would to test voltage ( you may get a small light spark as you touch the Black probe to gnd ). You meter should read 5a and it should decrease as you turn VR/C5 anti c/w.

just checked the vr4 actually marked vr2 (the vr4 marked spot next to it is unused).yeh ...its fully adjustable.i didnt bother seeing how far it went, but several volts either way in .1 increments by the looks. the meter charge current i found is 3.15 amps at the moment so left it alone.

update. adjusted charger to charge cells to 4.05v. all at 4.05v 24hrs later all 4.04v several days later all still at 4.04v. used hot glue to make sure bms socket doesnt work loose.think all the pins are making good contact.

 

Optimistically set off.pulling high amps on cpl hills early on was fine. later had 2 cut outs on hills after 15-30 secs.first one pulling 30amps via throttle,2nd time 20 amps on pas3. tho hills fine on pas1 around 12amps. both times the display showed the voltage had not dropped below 49v.no where near the lvc of 42v. the first one took an on/off of the battery switch to get going again.the 2nd time i had to flick it on/off twenty times whilst holding the lcd display button to get it to switch on again.

 

all the cells read an even 3.72v after the ride. Could kirsten be right and its my lcd display incorrectly registering a huge non existent sag . Or a deteriorated cell or more that are suffering an astronomic sag under load ,which the display of course wont show. or do the symptoms suggest something else. hope someone can give a further suggestion. thanks anyone

Edited March 16, 20206 yr by minexplorer

If you had a bad cell/s the balance for sure will be out and all over the place, start and end balance is good so

 

The 30Q was designed for high current delivery for battery tools the cycle life is poor and not up to ebike needs, IMHO either they are toast and sag badly or the BMS might be at fault. Try and temp wire a separate cheap £2 or £3 voltage display between the battery and controller go for ride and see what it tells you, if no sag then it is likely the BMS at fault.

The display might be an issue but highly unlikely, I would say the cheap ebay 2 or 3 quid option will save you wasting money on a lcd you might not need.

The cheap display I talk of has a battery bar indicator, voltage & % readout and are about 30mm x 60mm in size with 2 wires.

Edited March 16, 20206 yr by Nealh

If you had a bad cell/s the balance for sure will be out and all over the place, stsrt and end balance is good so

 

The 30Q was designed for high current delivery for battery tools the cycle life is poor and not up to ebike needs, IMHO either they are toast and sag badly or the BMS might be at fault. Try and temp wire a separate cheap £2 or £3 voltage display between the battery and controller go for ride and see what it tells you, if no sag then it is likely the BMS at fault.

The display might be an issue but highly unlikely, I would say the cheap ebay 2 or 3 quid option will save you wasting money on a lcd you might not need.

The cheap display I talk of has a battery bar indicator, voltage & % readout and are about 30mm x 60mm in size with 2 wires.

thanks nealh. i do have an identical lcd display on my bbs01 i can swap over, to test the cutting out problem kirsten mentioned she had earlier in this thread.i also have a couple of those voltage displays u mention. ill try an rig one up.

 

when this issue first arose many months ago and i manually balanced the cells.it did return to allowing full 30amp load right down to the LVC with no cutting out.for a few recharges.since then its not been used just left in a state of half+ charge. theres tons of people using ebike 30q batteries,surely they cant go toast after 1500 miles use?

The evidence from the ES boys is they self discharge and are poor after the first 50 -100 cycles.

 

Oh and by the way last time I saw him Kirstin was still a bloke and not a she or heeshe.

The evidence from the ES boys is they self discharge and are poor after the first 50 -100 cycles.

 

Oh and by the way last time I saw him Kirstin was still a bloke and not a she or heeshe.

Lol....An i must have done 70 recharges easy. ordered some anderson connectors.so i can insert my watt/volt etc meter into the circuit. not chopping off the andersons the battery/motor came fitted with. ive got one of these ive been using as a display on my wifes old bike.

wow over two years ago this saga with my bbshd. it destroyed my interest in electric bikes,that 450 quid down the drain.cant afford a new battery ,its just sat in the shed for two years. even the reliable bbs01 hasnt been out in two years either.this experience plunged me into such a downer on e biking have never ridden again. just drive out for long walks now.

only the missus e bikes now and hers has just packed up. the planatery gears in her rear hub motor have stripped. anyone know if theres anywhere stocks a big range of such replacement parts i cld try matching up something.

bafanfg has sold out and now use can bus programming so that bbshd you have will just go up in price as you can up the amps with the software cable