Suspect this will cause a rethink https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/ebike-cyclist-death-by-dangerous-driving-a4372596.html

Let's hope is doesn't result in the pedelec concessions being removed but with the widespread flagrant breach of the law something needs to happen.

The problem with the law is how to enforce it - as well as what it actually is.

 

It would be fine clarifying exactly what an ebike is but how would that get enforced? The Police arn't (I hope!) going to start pulling over any bike they think may be an ebike (becasue some of the new ones are less obvious than previously so they would pick on some non-motorised bike and caused total indignation from some of the lyrca brigade) and then how to they test it at the roadside??

I suppose they would have to leave the rider at the side of the road and take the potential ebike to a test station in a van. If not then how do you test the cutoff speed is not hacked?

As far as I can see you have to have a label/plate on the bike saying its power etc - or something saying the make (and model?) of the motor - but this seems a bit dumb as anyone could have a label but have a different motor with more power - so we get back to testing in a proper facility

 

and at the end of all that - how do you know when your motor cuts out? My new Motus is so quiet that by 15.5 mph the wind noise is louder then the motor noise - and the cut out is so smooth I can't feel it. As a result the motor could be cutting out at a speed over 15.5 and I wouldn't know.

The problem with the law is how to enforce it - as well as what it actually is.

 

It would be fine clarifying exactly what an ebike is but how would that get enforced? The Police arn't (I hope!) going to start pulling over any bike they think may be an ebike (becasue some of the new ones are less obvious than previously so they would pick on some non-motorised bike and caused total indignation from some of the lyrca brigade) and then how to they test it at the roadside??

I suppose they would have to leave the rider at the side of the road and take the potential ebike to a test station in a van. If not then how do you test the cutoff speed is not hacked?

As far as I can see you have to have a label/plate on the bike saying its power etc - or something saying the make (and model?) of the motor - but this seems a bit dumb as anyone could have a label but have a different motor with more power - so we get back to testing in a proper facility

 

and at the end of all that - how do you know when your motor cuts out? My new Motus is so quiet that by 15.5 mph the wind noise is louder then the motor noise - and the cut out is so smooth I can't feel it. As a result the motor could be cutting out at a speed over 15.5 and I wouldn't know.

Perhaps by requiring a yearly test of cut off speed and a license disc mounted on the bike funded by the charge to the owner for performing the tests.

With the upcoming big demand for escooters something like this is increasingly going to be necessary.

The problem with the law is how to enforce it - as well as what it actually is.

 

It would be fine clarifying exactly what an ebike is but how would that get enforced?

 

We'll probably end up doing what we so often do, making the occasional example of obvious cases, like this illegal e-bike one.

 

It happened to cyclist Charlie Alliston when he collided with and killed a woman who stepped out in front of him without looking. Only having one brake instead of two and failing to show remorse earned him a year and a half prison sentence. With two brakes and showing remorse he wouldn't have ended up in jail.

 

Making an example of him like that worked, all our many fixie riding couriers like him, some with only one brake, were caused to take note and act accordingly.

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and at the end of all that - how do you know when your motor cuts out? My new Motus is so quiet that by 15.5 mph the wind noise is louder then the motor noise - and the cut out is so smooth I can't feel it. As a result the motor could be cutting out at a speed over 15.5 and I wouldn't know.

if you were involved in an accident and your speedometer is found to be faulty, then you can sue your suppliers.

On the other hand, if you derestrict your bike then you will be on your own.

Perhaps by requiring a yearly test of cut off speed and a license disc mounted on the bike funded by the charge to the owner for performing the tests.

With the upcoming big demand for escooters something like this is increasingly going to be necessary.

That would be good for bike shops - additional income like an MOT - but you know what happens when that happens - the regualtions end up increasing.

And - introduce them for ebikes and you dis-incentivise ebike so people go to e-scooters and hoverboards - and whatever comes along next year - so you introdude regs for them as well - then for bikes - then you have to have a helmet

By which time everyone has given up and gone back into their cars

Chris Boardman did a good analysis on the effect of compulsory helmets - the same would apply to any yearly inspections

probably

YMMV

That would be good for bike shops - additional income like an MOT - but you know what happens when that happens - the regualtions end up increasing.

And - introduce them for ebikes and you dis-incentivise ebike so people go to e-scooters and hoverboards - and whatever comes along next year - so you introdude regs for them as well - then for bikes - then you have to have a helmet

By which time everyone has given up and gone back into their cars

Chris Boardman did a good analysis on the effect of compulsory helmets - the same would apply to any yearly inspections

probably

YMMV

I understand that some of the dongles can be removed in seconds and put back on just as quickly so a yearly test wouldn't work.

I understand that some of the dongles can be removed in seconds and put back on just as quickly so a yearly test wouldn't work.

What would work?

What would work?

 

Making the occasional example of an obvious offender as I posted.

 

You only have to look at the Charlie Alliston case to know how making an example of someone results in widespread publicity having a dramatic effect. His one and a half year sentence put a whole new slant on a bicycle's legality. It was no longer the very minor matter it had been up until then.

 

Most of our law regulation works this way, even minor ones like littering or illegal parking. The occasional batch of £80 fines for dropping a cigarette butt or cars carted away to the pound with £150 plus the parking fine to pay to get the car back have a salutary effect, despite most never being detected.

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Making the occasional example of an obvious offender as I posted.

 

You only have to look at the Charlie Alliston case to know how making an example of someone results in widespread publicity having a dramatic effect. His one and a half year sentence put a whole new slant on a bicycle's legality. It was no longer the very minor matter it had been up until then.

 

Most of our law regulation works this way, even minor ones like littering or illegal parking. The occasional batch of £80 fines for dropping a cigarette butt or cars carted away to the pound with £150 plus the parking fine to pay to get the car back have a salutary effect, despite most never being detected.

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But you can only make an example of them when you catch them which right now seems to be only when they kill somebody.

 

There must be a better way.

But you can only make an example of them when you catch them which right now seems to be only when they kill somebody.

 

But that is what's meant by the isolated example. They make others to whom it has relevance sit up and take notice.

 

Lots of cases could have the opposite effect, people might just yawn at the commonplace .

 

100% detection is impossible so we normally deal with the important. If cyclists only kill once year, it hardly ranks as important to the police against all the other road deaths. But when something becomes serious they then act. For example we had a spate of cyclists killed in collisions with trucks about 3 or 4 years ago, so the police acted then. For a couple of months the Met Police blitzed the streets mob handed, stopping thousand of cyclists and drivers at the slightest hint of an infringement. A few were ticketed, most just warned in a friendly fashion and it was even handed, as many cyclists as drivers. It had the desired effect.

 

If illegal e-bikes start to become a bigger problem, a similar action can be taken. But at present there are far higher priorities and bigger problems for the authorities to deal with, the national spate of youth knife crime for example.

 

So seizing the odd opportunity to make an example is good enough meanwhile.

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On the point of removing the dongle and then putting it back after the test - just saying that Bosch claim to be able to detect when an ebike with one of their motors has been 'dongled' (is that a word??)

if you use a dongle too much then it will go into a limp mode and won't work until you get it unlocked by an authorised dealer

Of course - I'm really not sure how they detect that you have put a dongle in - and obviously they won't say - but I am sure someone is working on how to get round it

I wonder how long their committemnt to this will last if sales drop and people start buying more dongleable versions from other makes

I wonder how long their committemnt to this will last if sales drop and people start buying more dongleable versions from other makes

I imagine that Bosch is worried that if the pedelec concessions are widely abused the authorities will simply withdraw them in which case the sales of ebikes would plummet. I believe that Bosch are acting to protect the overall market and not necessarily their market share.

Of course - I'm really not sure how they detect that you have put a dongle in - and obviously they won't say - but I am sure someone is working on how to get round it

one simple way is to look at the average battery consumption per mile.

Battery usage increases very rapidly when the bike gets over 15mph.

one simple way is to look at the average battery consumption per mile.

Battery usage increases very rapidly when the bike gets over 15mph.

And since the dongles typically halve the detected rpm of the cycle wheels the measured distance travelled is halved so the measured battery consumption per mile will be further reduced.

What would work?

No idea.

one simple way is to look at the average battery consumption per mile.

Battery usage increases very rapidly when the bike gets over 15mph.

Surely the battery consumption varies greatly depending on which mode the bike is in. I may ride continuously in Turbo and you in Eco.

There may be some alogarithm that could use the percentage mileage in each mode that the Bosch software already records but I wouldn’t call it simple.

Surely the battery consumption varies greatly depending on which mode the bike is in. I may ride continuously in Turbo and you in Eco.

Surely the controller knows what mode it's in at any time? It will also have a good idea of the gradient and rider's input from the torque and cadence sensors so at any time it should have a reasonable idea of what the battery consumption per mile should be.

And the algorithms don't need to be particularly sophisticated either.

Pedelec market will virtually be killed off if they brought in tougher regulation for them, esp if some sort of licensing involved, same with helmets Boardmans ideas are flawed. I think is was on cycle uk forum where I saw a thread regarding more scientific research carried out and it appeared that drivers who saw someone wearing helmet, close passed more often as it is perceived the rider is safer because they are wearing one. The fact that it is still dangerous is irrelevant to most.

Helmets don't make you any safer, esp those who attach lights or cameras to there bonce, Shumacher proved that and is why he is still now needing 24hr care many years following his accident.

The little girl who recently died whilst wearing her cycle helmet, she wasn't cycling at the time but was climbing a tree. She died because the strap got caught up and she was strangled as the strap couldn't be released, wearing a helmet as she was told to didn't save her life.

Surely the controller knows what mode it's in at any time? It will also have a good idea of the gradient and rider's input from the torque and cadence sensors so at any time it should have a reasonable idea of what the battery consumption per mile should be.

And the algorithms don't need to be particularly sophisticated either.

As far as I know my crank powered bike doesn't know what gear I am in - or what gears are on the bike. The rear wheel's only connection to the ebike systems (as far as I can see) is the speed sensor - i.e. a metal lump on a spoke and a detector on the frame. SO I presume that I could swap out the gears at will. Hence - maybe - if the speed sensor was fiddled I'm not sure it would know

 

Also - how does it know the gradient?? As far as I am aware there no sensor - unless it is a posh one with gps or a full blown angley measurer thing (there is probably a better name for it -)

Also - how does it know the gradient?? As far as I am aware there no sensor - unless it is a posh one with gps or a full blown angley measurer thing (there is probably a better name for it -)

 

This bike can sense the gradient https://revonte.com/

As far as I know my crank powered bike doesn't know what gear I am in - or what gears are on the bike. The rear wheel's only connection to the ebike systems (as far as I can see) is the speed sensor - i.e. a metal lump on a spoke and a detector on the frame. SO I presume that I could swap out the gears at will. Hence - maybe - if the speed sensor was fiddled I'm not sure it would know

 

Also - how does it know the gradient?? As far as I am aware there no sensor - unless it is a posh one with gps or a full blown angley measurer thing (there is probably a better name for it -)

If the controller knows the cadence and knows the cycle wheel rpm it can calculate the gear ratio.

 

It could estimate the gradient from its knowledge of the torque being applied to the pedals, cycle speed and the gear ratio. A simple example of this:

Case A. speed = 10mph, gear ratio = G and low torque on pedals

Case B. speed = 10mph, gear ratio = G and high torque on pedals

then case B indicates a steeper road than A

As far as I know my crank powered bike doesn't know what gear I am in - or what gears are on the bike. The rear wheel's only connection to the ebike systems (as far as I can see) is the speed sensor - i.e. a metal lump on a spoke and a detector on the frame. SO I presume that I could swap out the gears at will. Hence - maybe - if the speed sensor was fiddled I'm not sure it would know

 

There is another way on some systems to get a higher assist speed that doesn't involve altering the rear gearing, and it might apply to yours.

 

See this link on my Panasonic support website.

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If the controller knows the cadence and knows the cycle wheel rpm it can calculate the gear ratio.

 

It could estimate the gradient from its knowledge of the torque being applied to the pedals, cycle speed and the gear ratio. A simple example of this:

Case A. speed = 10mph, gear ratio = G and low torque on pedals

Case B. speed = 10mph, gear ratio = G and high torque on pedals

then case B indicates a steeper road than A

My bike doesn’t have a cadence sensor. With regard to “torque on pedals” if I sprint on the flat eg setting off from lights, = lots of torque, then slow down = no torque, how does the controller equate that with gradient.

My bike doesn’t have a cadence sensor. With regard to “torque on pedals” if I sprint on the flat eg setting off from lights, = lots of torque, then slow down = no torque, how does the controller equate that with gradient.

Sorry, we were talking about Bosch equipped ebikes.