You also have to think about how to mount the battery. You need a case of some sort and a way to fix it to the bike.

You also have to think about how to mount the battery. You need a case of some sort and a way to fix it to the bike.

 

Yes - there is a fair bit to plan and do. Those triangle bags might help on that issue. On the other hand, you would need to protect the cells from damage if the bike was dropped or fell over while parked, a thing that happens more than i would like.

So not withstanding that the battery monitor in a KT controller might be a tad confused by an LFP and not show the correct charge state, is there anyone building eBike batteries with these cells, even maybe custom ?

 

My regular supplier can build LFP-21700-3200mAH in 12S3P (36V9.6AH) into Hailong cases.

Who would be interested?

I am waiting for the new higher energy density generation of LFP cells.

My regular supplier can build LFP-21700-3200mAH in 12S3P (36V9.6AH) into Hailong cases.

Who would be interested?

I am waiting for the new higher energy density generation of LFP cells.

 

I'd be interested in the future when my current mid drive bike battery needs replacing, but I would want about 13 Ahr really. I realise the difficulty of getting a lower output battery technology into a limited volume. I think we would need a different kind of case.

 

If I was making something, I might consider a kind of rack and pannier system with half of the battery on one side and the other half on the opposite side. That way, the weight could be kept low. My half baked idea is that we would have something around 20Ahr LFP cells with 6s on one side linked by suitable gauge wire to another 6s on the other side. How many in parallel would depend on the cells. One obvious problem might be to do with the length of the balance wires from the BMS. They would likely need to be extended. I am imagining the cells being sandwiched for protection in some sort of light plywood structure, so they could not easily be bashed if the bike fell over. Cables over the top of the pannier would be in trunking.

 

I am sure this plan will be shot down in flames...

I'd be interested in the future when my current mid drive bike battery needs replacing, but I would want about 13 Ahr really. I realise the difficulty of getting a lower output battery technology into a limited volume. I think we would need a different kind of case.

the output is 28A continuous OK for LFP-21700-3200mAH in 12S3P (36V9.6AH) batteries. Plenty of power. The problem is those cells are still not as energy dense as those going into current models from Chinese EVs like Geely or BYD.

I'd be interested in the future when my current mid drive bike battery needs replacing, but I would want about 13 Ahr really. I realise the difficulty of getting a lower output battery technology into a limited volume. I think we would need a different kind of case.

 

If I was making something, I might consider a kind of rack and pannier system with half of the battery on one side and the other half on the opposite side. That way, the weight could be kept low. My half baked idea is that we would have something around 20Ahr LFP cells with 6s on one side linked by suitable gauge wire to another 6s on the other side. How many in parallel would depend on the cells. One obvious problem might be to do with the length of the balance wires from the BMS. They would likely need to be extended. I am imagining the cells being sandwiched for protection in some sort of light plywood structure, so they could not easily be bashed if the bike fell over. Cables over the top of the pannier would be in trunking.

 

I am sure this plan will be shot down in flames...

A one or 2 off passion project perhaps, as a viable product? You will need a suitable rack/container system to be provided at a reasonable cost, adding a £20 rack to the final price will be cheaper than ensuring a fit all racks solution, and then you may as well incorporate the rack base or its underside for the bms housing etc.

 

Its the sort of product that would grab my attention followed by a sharp intake of breath when the price is finally revealed. - but im so tight i squeak so..

 

keep mulling it over until inspiration hits

the output is 28A continuous OK for LFP-21700-3200mAH in 12S3P (36V9.6AH) batteries. Plenty of power. The problem is those cells are still not as energy dense as those going into current models from Chinese EVs like Geely or BYD.

 

Do you think that the difference in energy density between LFP and our current cobalt/nickel/manganese chemistry might be about the lower voltage of the LFP cell, or is it something else? Just looking at it from an ignorant point of view, the voltage difference of the charged cells is 20% lower for the LFP ones. That will I think lower the energy you can get out of them. Of course for a 36v nominal battery you would for LFP go from 10s to 12 s to counteract that. Bigger and heavier of course by doing that.

A one or 2 off passion project perhaps, as a viable product? You will need a suitable rack/container system to be provided at a reasonable cost, adding a £20 rack to the final price will be cheaper than ensuring a fit all racks solution, and then you may as well incorporate the rack base or its underside for the bms housing etc.

 

Its the sort of product that would grab my attention followed by a sharp intake of breath when the price is finally revealed. - but im so tight i squeak so..

 

keep mulling it over until inspiration hits

 

Yes - I keep reading that LFP cells are cheaper but when I look around for prices I don't see that. I am only thinking about this matter at all because of the safety issues of abused and defective manganese/cobalt/nickel chemistry.

 

I was not of course imagining a saleable product here. Just notions about how I could construct an LFP battery out of suitable cells for my own bike.

Do you think that the difference in energy density between LFP and our current cobalt/nickel/manganese chemistry might be about the lower voltage of the LFP cell, or is it something else? Just looking at it from an ignorant point of view, the voltage difference of the charged cells is 20% lower for the LFP ones. That will I think lower the energy you can get out of them. Of course for a 36v nominal battery you would for LFP go from 10s to 12 s to counteract that. Bigger and heavier of course by doing that.

You can look at the lower gravimetric density from the voltage point of view. The issue remains that only a few companies and they are very large producers have the new technology to make denser cells. Until they make 21700 cells with their new technology, I am stuck with 5 year old technology.

Yeah - chip pans. I remember about forty years ago I was visiting my mum with my family and she made some chips to go with the meal and forgot to take the pan off the heat. We were just getting started on the meal and there was a sound of something falling over out in the kitchen. The dining room door was closed and Mum said, 'what was that'? and got up to look. When she opened the door, the smoke poured in and we quickly evacuated the kids and in the next twenty seconds Dad and I rushed to do something. The ceiling strip light and the nylon fan in the cooker hood were on fire and the pan had four or more foot flames pouring out of it. To be honest, the flames must have been higher at some point because the diffuser on the ceiling light was well ablaze. I switched off the mains (electric cooker) and rushed upstairs to get a towel to cover the pan (you couldn't really see much in the kitchen for black smoke, so I figured the bathroom towels would be easily got at) but when I got back down, I saw Dad had opened the back door and he made the mistake of taking the pan and throwing it outside. He burned his hair, face and hands and was bloody lucky not to have ended up a lot worse. The pan went off like a bomb outside when he chucked it.

 

The original warning sound was caused by a tile falling off the wall behind the cooker.

 

It cost a small fortune to repair all the smoke damage. The whole house was coated in sooty muck.

 

Not a great experience.

Does anyone remember those expanded polystyrene ceiling tiles that were all the fashion in the seventies that when ignited dropped gobs of napalm? It took quite a few years before those formulated without fire retardant were banned.

Delivery firm boss was unfairly sacked after warning his company's e-bike batteries could spontaneously burst into flames

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13846339/delivery-firm-boss-unfairly-sacked-warning-companys-e-bike-batteries.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj9jd4v4y19o

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/only-purchase-safe-and-legal-e-bikes-new-government-safety-campaign-urges-public

'If you spot a deal that looks to be good to be true, it probably is' - UK government launches 'Buy Safe, Be Safe' e-bike campaign to deter customers from rogue sellers

 

E-bike and e-scooters are causing fires every two days, according to the London Fire Brigade

 

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/if-you-spot-a-deal-that-looks-to-be-good-to-be-true-it-probably-is-uk-government-launches-buy-safe-be-safe-e-bike-campaign-to-deter-customers-from-rogue-sellers

 

Mayor Adams Announces Finalized E-Bike Trade-In Program to Keep New Yorkers Safe From Lithium-Ion Battery Fires

 

Thanks to $2 Million City Investment, Select Delivery Workers Will Be Able to Trade in Dangerous E-bikes and Mopeds for Safer Certified E-bikes and Batteries

 

https://www.nyc.gov/office-of-the-mayor/news/783-24/mayor-adams-finalized-e-bike-trade-in-program-keep-new-yorkers-safe-lithium-ion#/0

Tesla crash sent battery ablaze and killed four in Toronto earlier today

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/fatal-crash-four-dead-lake-shore-cherry-1.7361751

 

A group of people are looking to sue a bike maker after a fatal fire.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/oct/24/12-ebike-fire-survivors-sue-london-landlords-and-battery-manufacturer

 

Couple of points

 

I dont think they've got much chance, as theres probably no way of telling if the owner of the bike adapted it in a way outwith manufacturers instructions, which then led to the fire.

 

 

And it kind of smacks of they are using this tragedy to line their own pockets

A group of people are looking to sue a bike maker after a fatal fire.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/oct/24/12-ebike-fire-survivors-sue-london-landlords-and-battery-manufacturer

 

Couple of points

 

I dont think they've got much chance, as theres probably no way of telling if the owner of the bike adapted it in a way outwith manufacturers instructions, which then led to the fire.

 

 

And it kind of smacks of they are using this tragedy to line their own pockets

From the linked article above

They are suing Leon Cycle Ltd for negligence and under the Consumer Protection Act 1987.

The company is well known on this forum as NCM brand bikes and Das Kit.

Senior members of the forum should perhaps check Trustpilot reviews before making recommendations.

 

leoncycle.co.uk Reviews | Read Customer Service Reviews of leoncycle.co.uk

Who are these "rogue sellers"? There have to be clear rules for rogues to exist and there are no rules, or are there?

People of the Chicken Licken tendency might like to remember how flammable a commodity petrol is. We happily coexisted with petrol powered vehicles for a hundred years. Petrol, weight for weight has about fifteen times the energy of gunpowder (*Note) and it is about as easy to set on fire. We all learned not to keep it in the house and to be careful how we handled it. What is wrong with modern people? Too many of them have been brought up as infantalised idiots who can not apparently be expected to take responsibility for what they do. They crave more and more of Strict Nanny's rules and regulations to protect them from their own stupidity.

 

Handle petrol badly and you know what will happen. Handle batteries badly and the same thing applies. The world now seems to be full of fking idiots as far as I can see.

 

Note*

Gunpowder 3 MJ per kg. Petrol 43.8 MJ per kg.

An important technical detail highlighted by the coroner was the likelihood of a charger of the wrong voltage being plugged into the battery that ignited.

 

48V and 36V chargers and batteries with the same connection is an obvious problem that needs to be solved.

 

Likewise, charging circuitry in the battery that cannot safely handle the wrong input voltage.

 

Either of these technical measures would have prevented this tragedy, and proper enforced standards are the way to implement them. Sadly, not retrospectively.

People of the Chicken Licken tendency might like to remember how flammable a commodity petrol is. We happily coexisted with petrol powered vehicles for a hundred years. Petrol, weight for weight has about fifteen times the energy of gunpowder (*Note) and it is about as easy to set on fire. We all learned not to keep it in the house and to be careful how we handled it. What is wrong with modern people? Too many of them have been brought up as infantalised idiots who can not apparently be expected to take responsibility for what they do. They crave more and more of Strict Nanny's rules and regulations to protect them from their own stupidity.

 

Handle petrol badly and you know what will happen. Handle batteries badly and the same thing applies. The world now seems to be full of fking idiots as far as I can see.

 

Note*

Gunpowder 3 MJ per kg. Petrol 43.8 MJ per kg.

It's not because people are idiots.

Petrol needs a comburant (oxygen) to burn, gunpowder and Lithium-ion batteries don't, they have already got their oxygen source. That's why you can extinguish a petrol (or diesel) fire by starving the fire of oxygen and you can't do same with gunpowder and Lithium Ion batteries.

From the linked article above

 

The company is well known on this forum as NCM brand bikes and Das Kit.

Senior members of the forum should perhaps check Trustpilot reviews before making recommendations.

 

leoncycle.co.uk Reviews | Read Customer Service Reviews of leoncycle.co.uk

The fire service said that the fire was caused by using the wrong charger. That's nothing to do with Leon Cycles. It's not good for you to cheer this on nor criticise Leon Cycles because the same could happen to any of your bikes. How would you like it if someone sued you, claiming that you were negligent in not fail-safeing your bikes against such a mistake? They will argue that it's like selling a gun without a safety catch, and accidents would be inevitable. Suppose Trading Standards visit you and tell you to recall all the bikes you've sold with a standard charger jack socket, and ask you to compensate the owners. Turkeys voting for Christmas comes to mind.

 

The NCM brand od ebikes that Leon Cycles sell come from the Leisger factory where the mk1 Oxygen S-Cross bikes were made. Essentially, they're the same bike and very well made. I don't remember anybody complaining about those Oxygen bikes. Nearly all the complaints for Leon Cycles on Trustpilot are about customer service. The bikes themselves probably get no more faults than yours.

Edited October 25, 20241 yr by saneagle

The fire service said that the fire was caused by using the wrong charger. That's nothing to do with Leon Cycles. It's not good for you to cheer this on nor criticise Leon Cycles because the same could happen to any of your bikes. How would you like it if someone sued you, claiming that you were negligent in not fail-safeing your bikes against such a mistake? They will argue that it's like selling a gun without a safety catch, and accidents would be inevitable. Suppose Trading Standards visit you and tell you to recall all the bikes you've sold with a standard charger jack socket, and ask you to compensate the owners. Turkeys voting for Christmas comes to mind.

I am not criticising Leon Cycle on account of the fire, that's the job for the plaintiffs' lawyers.

Did you read the trustpilot reviews of Leon Cycle? Read them please then we'll discuss this issue of member recommendations.

Quite enlightening the Trust Pilot scores

 

https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/wisperbikes.com

 

https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/www.wooshbikes.co.uk

 

https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/eleglide.com

 

https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/leoncycle.co.uk