Your example falls into the area of QA in design and manufacturing while the bulk of battery research goes still on their chemistry at the moment.

Your example falls into the area of QA in design and manufacturing while the bulk of battery research goes still on their chemistry at the moment.

Instead, they should concentrate on what's causing fires. All the chemistry in the world won't stop wires from getting chomped or stupid owners removing the BMS or parking their bike next to an electric car.

Battery fires are a relatively small risk. If you get the chemistry right, thermal runaway can be eliminated altogether.

This is the sort of theorising that can send us in the wrong direction. For each battery that catches fire, there's a specific reason. Maybe I can explain better by way of example.

 

In 1996 the top range Vaillant boilers were failing on average three times during the warranty period. They had invited all the top consultants in to help solve the problem, but they made zero progress. If anything, it got worse. They actually had quite a good data system that gave codes for various defects found, and departments did a lot of data analysis.

 

My first action was to call a meeting with the chiefs of every department involved - quality, development, design, production, service and supply. I had a printout of all the defect codes and rates, and the diverter valve was at the top of the list, so I asked them what was going wrong with it. Instead of answers, I got opinions. I stopped the meeting very quickly and asked the guy from the quality department to bring 50 returned diverter valves to the meeting tomorrow and 8 sets of tools so that everybody could dismantle one and see what was wrong with it. These managers were not impressed, but the CEO had set me the task of telling him which ones he needed to fire, and they knew it.

 

At the next meeting, each participant was given a valve with its defect code, and the dismantling started. The first one had the code for leaking. It had a ball of expanded polystyrene from the packaging stuck between two sealing surfaces. No amount of theorising would ever have found that. The next and many more thereafter with the code for "not working" had a total gungey mess inside because somehow zinc plated screws instead of the prescribed stainless ones had been used to hold a copper spring. it caused massive corrosion. Within three meetings, we'd found about 20 common causes that accounted for about 95% of all faults. All had simple solutions, like putting a strong magnet on the shoot where the screws went in to the screwing robot. Worry about why some of the screws were the wrong material and where they came from later.

 

This way of doing things is not the German way. After the first meeting, all those guys hated me and were making snide remarks that they thought I couldn't understand, but we all became friends when the problems were solved and they kept their jobs. Vaillant is still in business and making boilers that don't break so easily.

You've gotta love forensic fault finding. Finding what is rather than what someone thinks it is.

You've gotta love forensic fault finding. Finding what is rather than what someone thinks it is.

That's it exactly.

Saneagle got the faulty items to play with, we don't though. We are looking at prevention.

Saneagle got the faulty items to play with, we don't though. We are looking at prevention.

That's what I'm saying. We can talk all day and make theories but we don't have the facts.

In an ice car fire it's known that the main accelerant is petrol/diesel. However the fuel doesn't get the blame, a source of ignition is always looked for.

Within the hyperbolic reporting of 'battery fires' the source of ignition is never sought after. Whether fire investigation services are looking deeper into it is moot because we don't get to know and the media wouldn't report it anyway. So we are edging towards the situation where li-ion batteries are being regarded, by the public in general, as a source of some sort of spontaneous combustion. 'Those devil batteries, ban'em all'.

One would hope that there is forensic examination of the cause of these fires and that the developing experts involved have calmer heads and are able to bring their knowledge to the right people. But the urge to be seen to be doing something is strong in politicians and regulators and I fear a 'ban that particular breed of dog' knee jerk response to the hyperbolae.

In an ice car fire it's known that the main accelerant is petrol/diesel. However the fuel doesn't get the blame, a source of ignition is always looked for.

 

We all would appreciate more facts and some logical conclusions, but truth to be told what we really need are safe methods of storing batteries while they are not in use, as this is when batteries are most dangerous.

 

On that we can work right now without all facts on why batteries explode.

In my opinion a lot of advice about how to charge and store batteries is misguided and incorrect.

The truth is not storage , it is more the facts of how they are charged or abused in use.

Never yet heard of a member having a battery fire in the 10/11 years I have been following the forum or been a forum member.

 

Storage is simple a dry ,cool place away from a heat source .

Though some have said they keep them in an airing cupboard .

Edited March 21, 20242 yr by Nealh

In an ice car fire it's known that the main accelerant is petrol/diesel. However the fuel doesn't get the blame, a source of ignition is always looked for.

Within the hyperbolic reporting of 'battery fires' the source of ignition is never sought after. Whether fire investigation services are looking deeper into it is moot because we don't get to know and the media wouldn't report it anyway. So we are edging towards the situation where li-ion batteries are being regarded, by the public in general, as a source of some sort of spontaneous combustion. 'Those devil batteries, ban'em all'.

One would hope that there is forensic examination of the cause of these fires and that the developing experts involved have calmer heads and are able to bring their knowledge to the right people. But the urge to be seen to be doing something is strong in politicians and regulators and I fear a 'ban that particular breed of dog' knee jerk response to the hyperbolae.

You should be a government minister. We need thinking like that. Unfortunately, the last thing that will happen is what you suggest. The first thing that will happen is that public money will be given to old friends in the club, who know nothing, and they'll recruit the guys that shout off the loudest about their hysterical theories.

The truth is not storage , it is more the facts of how they are charged or abused in use.

 

We all know some basics. Don't: drop, kick, shot at, hammer nails into, put in fire, charge with wrong charger etc etc

 

It is when batteries are stored and when charged they are most deadly. I never experienced battery fire or house fire, but they do happen and none of us wants that. Some easy precautions could reduce risk nearly to zero.

It's almost like we need a well informed public information campaign, giving the basics on charging , storing etc.

I wonder how many places went up in flames in the early days of petrol before people knew how to treat it? In early days it was sold by chemist shops.

This forum does well with information, and has helped me a lot over the last 10 years, but still there is the constant need to re-adress misinformation people arrive with, ranging from hearsay to urban myth.

Wouldn't it be great to have an informal college of eapc's dealing with this area. Of course, in these litigant times, the liabilties would be huge and prohibitive. Might save some lives though.

We all know some basics. Don't: drop, kick, shot at, hammer nails into, put in fire, charge with wrong charger etc etc

 

It is when batteries are stored and when charged they are most deadly. I never experienced battery fire or house fire, but they do happen and none of us wants that. Some easy precautions could reduce risk nearly to zero.

Woosh has had racks of batteries in storage, and he's been charging them from time to time. That's been going on for more than 10 years. He has never had a fire. Likewise, I've had at least 10 good batteries plus a pallet load of faulty ones stored at my house for more than 10 years. They never caught fire either. That sort of destroys your theory.

Never yet heard of a member having a battery fire in the 10/11 years I have been following the fourm or been a forum member.

 

Nor me since the day the forum opened in October 2006.

 

Over seventeen years of mostly lithium battery charging and usage by at least 15,000 members joining over the years, without a single fire.

.

I remember my visit to Jimmy in N .London and in his worshshop had a pallet crate full of batteries from an ebike suppler that needed his attention. They had been there for ages and he said he will get round to them as and when.

We all know some basics. Don't: drop, kick, shot at, hammer nails into, put in fire, charge with wrong charger etc etc

 

It is when batteries are stored and when charged they are most deadly. I never experienced battery fire or house fire, but they do happen and none of us wants that. Some easy precautions could reduce risk nearly to zero.

 

It's not the charging and storage , but the use of a an incorrect voltage supply source or the stupid thing of idiots reverse charging.

We have heard on here where soem members have gon down the reverse charging route and some who omit the BMS altogether, fortunately they haven't come unstuck with their idiotic practices .

Speaking of battery fires, this should be fun:

 

Battery Electric Trains on trial in London for unelectrified branch lines use all day long. The battery fully recharges at the end of each run in just three and a half minutes! Being media no information of what battery type is used, probably Lithium but could be an application for Sodium-salt, given seven day and all day working.

 

Two video links, the second one with more information but more waffle as well:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-london-68602173

 

https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2024/03/battery-train-begins-trial-in-west-london.html

 

I wonder if they'll refuse to carry e-bikes and e-scooters ?

.

Edited March 21, 20242 yr by flecc

Speaking of battery fires, this should be fun:

 

Battery Electric Trains on trial in London for unelectrified branch lines use all day long. The battery fully recharges at the end of each run in just three and a half minutes! Being media no information of what battery type is used, probably Lithium but could be an application for Sodium-salt, given seven day and all day working.

 

Two video links, the second one with more information but more waffle as well:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-london-68602173

 

https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2024/03/battery-train-begins-trial-in-west-london.html

 

I wonder if they'll refuse to carry e-bikes and e-scooters ?

.

I pray that one doesn't catch fire. Everything else has, so I don't hold out too much hope.

"It features four 106 kWh battery rafts"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_230

Woosh has had racks of batteries in storage, and he's been charging them from time to time. That's been going on for more than 10 years. He has never had a fire. Likewise, I've had at least 10 good batteries plus a pallet load of faulty ones stored at my house for more than 10 years. They never caught fire either. That sort of destroys your theory.

 

What theory?

I wish Woosh and you all the best. I am really happy to hear there were no reported cases of fire in Woosh warehouse, but it proves nothing. I hope mentioned warehouse wasn't flooded either. Please don't tell me it is a proof that floods don't exist.

flood? we are on a cliff, in town centre.

"sales figures don't count ebike conversion kits, whereas the fire report data counts converted bikes as e-bikes.

 

But if we use this number as a rough guide, the 20 electric bicycle fires in that year correspond to 0.003% or 1 in 30,000 e-bikes "on the road" catching fire in that year. If only half of those e-bikes were still in use in 2022, the odds would increase to 1 in 15,000. For comparison, the same report states that around 1 in 1,300 cars catch fire each year in Sweden, including from crashes and arson, although electric car fires are much rarer (around 1 in 30,000). "

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/e-bike-battery-fires-should-you-be-worried.html

 

I've just watched a UK news interview with London fire brigade regarding the rise of ebike battery fires.

It was said to be conversion kits that are the problem. That's not scooters or any other type of battery powered transport.

Every time I see images it looks to me like cheap chinese ebikes. Frames don't look like a mountain bike and some have those fat tyres on.

Also in the news is that poor lady that was hit by a racing bike ( not an e-bike) in London https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13384489/Pensioner-killed-bike-Regents-Park-cyclist-prosecuted.html

Reading article it sounds like a accident but that also added to the discussion about cycling regulations.

 

Seems battery or no battery bikes are in the news with the rise in cycling and many are calling for all sorts of new regulation. I'm not against safety etc but I fear the next few years could be interesting and the freedom we have now will be taken away.

Maybe walking will be the new riding.

I've just watched a UK news interview with London fire brigade regarding the rise of ebike battery fires.

It was said to be conversion kits that are the problem. That's not scooters or any other type of battery powered transport.

Every time I see images it looks to me like cheap chinese ebikes. Frames don't look like a mountain bike and some have those fat tyres on.

Also in the news is that poor lady that was hit by a racing bike ( not an e-bike) in London https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13384489/Pensioner-killed-bike-Regents-Park-cyclist-prosecuted.html

Reading article it sounds like a accident but that also added to the discussion about cycling regulations.

 

Seems battery or no battery bikes are in the news with the rise in cycling and many are calling for all sorts of new regulation. I'm not against safety etc but I fear the next few years could be interesting and the freedom we have now will be taken away.

Maybe walking will be the new riding.

It's not the conversion kits that cause the problem: It's what'sin them and the way they'reinstalled. AFAICS, nearly all the ebike fires involve bikes with big direct drive motors or the more powerful fatbike type geared motors. These are the sort of bikes that delivery riders use. I'm not saying that it's delivery riders causing the problem, but I bet that there's a strong correlation between batteries catching fire and the owner being a delivery rider because there's a good chance that the delivery riders would use those systems.

 

These powerful systems run with higher currents, which obviously increases the risk of fire. My solution would be to properly clamp down on these vehicles. I see them nearly every time I go out for a decent ride or to the town centre. Watch any YouTube video of people walking around cities, and you'll see them all over the place. They're dead easy to recognise.

 

Also, if you take the population of all people,who have installed an ebike battery, some will not have a clue what they're doing, which is a problem at the moment. If people buy a ready-made kit, where all the connectors fit, it's unlikely that they can cause a problem that makes the battery catch fire unless they decide to change something.

 

Still, nobody on this forum has had a battery fire yet, despite members like Cwah, bless him, and I hope he's well, who used to blow up every motor and controller he had, so it can't be easy to cause a fire.

I have just had my bike delivered, have unpacked it and chucked out all the polystyrene packaging as I have no space. Before assembling I have been reading the booklet, and one paragraph really concerns me.

 

It is an Eleglide M1 Plus 29, and the paragraph reads;

 

"Furthermore, avoid puddles, wet mud, swamps, water, snow and ice. Try not to use it on a rainy, stormy or snowy day. If the bicycle's electric parts (control unit, engine and battery) get damp, wet or soaked, it will cause irreversible damage or even a battery explosion.

 

The handlebar may be affected as the user steers or brakes the bike."

 

I had no intention of riding through soggy pastures or riding in ice and snow, but puddles? Mud? Rain?

 

Is this a normal warning which will come with any electrically assisted bike, or is my bike not fit for purpose leaving me at risk of fires?