]Postby Jeremy Harris » Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:22 pm

Notwithstanding all the things that are potentially iffy about this bike and the character that's put it together, the single most hilarious thing is to see the stir it's caused over on the UK Pedelecs forum.

 

Watching the holier-than-thou crowd condemn this bike, when large numbers of them are riding ebikes that don't comply with UK law, is laughable (and if anyone thinks I'm making this up, then just do some very simple power measurements on UK ebikes - the vast majority exceed the 250W legal limit by a fairly hefty margin).

 

There are folk on that forum happily riding bikes with 15A (or more), 36V controllers who seem to think that their ebikes magically "lose" far more than half their battery power as heat, rather than motive power. Joke, or what? Maybe someone needs to tell these folk that the most optimistic interpretation of UK law *might* just possibly, allow them around 9A or 10A from a 36V supply (even that's pushing it, in terms of the allowance for losses that might be considered *reasonable*) and that riding around with a 15A controller current limit is just outrageously illegal................

 

Jeremy

 

Seems we get a mention on Endless-sphere i copied this posting off there!

Edited January 30, 201115 yr by stevebills

Seems we get a mention on Endless-sphere i copied this posting off there!

 

A pity that Jeremy doesn't realise that we are well aware of the current status of our e-bikes vis-a-vis power.

 

The difference is that most of the bikes we use are restricted to legal speed limits or not capable of much more under power alone anyway. Our supposedly holier-than-thou attitudes are comments on the bikes that flagrantly breach the whole gamut of e-bike laws.

 

Where rational views are concerned, I'd rank the pedelecs forum above Endless Sphere any day.

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Agreed Flecc. Unfortunately they just don't seem to be catching on in my part of the country, despite me extolling their virtues at every opportunity.

 

But appearances are misleading, It takes millions of cars for us to see them all the while for example.

 

In 43 years here I've never seen another e-bike ridden in my very large London Borough, just once seen a brand new Powabyke pushed and once seen a Lafree parked. But Croydon now has a specialist e-bike only dealer and two other bike shops selling e-bikes as well, so they must be selling to a fair number of people.

 

However, even in dozens they would be a drop in the ocean in a borough of over 350,000 people, hundreds of miles of streets, at least 100,000 local cars, plus cars pouring through from all other parts. To occasionally see e-bikes ridden in such an area they'd have to be in many dozens used daily for substantial journeys, or many hundreds used occasionally for odd shopping trips and the like

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Edited to remove copy of offensive comment.

Edited January 30, 201115 yr by Jeremy

Jeremy, I've emailed the administrator to get this removed, apologies on behalf of the great majority of pedelecs members.

 

Stevebills, meanwhile please edit the offensive addition from your post.

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Jeremy, I've emailed the administrator to get this removed, apologies on behalf of the great majority of pedelecs members.

 

Stevebills, meanwhile please edit the offensive addition from your post.

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Removed it sorry but it was only a giggle maybe a little childish!

Edited January 30, 201115 yr by stevebills

Thank you Steve, understood, but maybe a "sorry" to Jeremy would be in order?

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Moderators: Please take action to remove this offensive and untrue statement, which is NOT a quote from another forum.

 

Your forum member "stevebills" has made up and added that libellous and offensive personal comment referring to me by name himself and did not copy it from anywhere else.

 

 

I'm sorry Jeremy x

Edited January 30, 201115 yr by stevebills

Thanks flecc and stevebills.

 

flecc, I think you and I know full well that the majority of UK ebikes are significantly over the legal power limit, particularly those fitted with hub motors and the majority of the add-on kits that are available.

 

As I think you also know, I view the motor output power restriction as something that's a bit arcane and unenforceable from the perspective of the police and courts. A simple maximum power assist speed restriction, with no other limitations, would be a far more sensible way to frame this legislation.

 

To amplify my previously copied comment, anyone here who is riding an ebike that can deliver more than about 9 or 10A from a 36V battery is almost certainly riding a moped, not a bicycle. For those with 48V batteries, you might possibly argue the case that 7 or 8 amps could just be legal - if you motor draws more than this then you too are riding a moped.

 

Truly legal ebikes, that fall wholly within the provisions of the UK EAPC regulations, are rare, in my view. The Panasonic powered bikes probably comply, along with one or two others, but almost all the hub motored bikes are almost certainly technically mopeds and illegal unless they are registered, fitted with number plates, taxed (at zero rate) and insured.

 

If anyone doubts this, I will quite happily come along and do some simple power measurements to prove it. Even the very poorest electric motor and controller is unlikely to be less than around 75% efficient (most will be around 85% efficienct), so 250 watts power output at the motor shaft (which is how the UK regulations are framed) equates to an input power of no more than about 330 watts, even using the most generous allowance for losses.

 

Jeremy

I know flecc has said something similar before, but I think his point was that the openly higher than legal power bikes do more harm to electric bike riders reputation than those that pay lip service to being meeting the legal requirements. If I understood correctly? At least that's the jist I got when I questioned my Cyclamatic's ability to assist to 19mph.

I know flecc has said something similar before, but I think his point was that the openly higher than legal power bikes do more harm to electric bike riders reputation than those that pay lip service to being meeting the legal requirements. If I understood correctly? At least that's the jist I got when I questioned my Cyclamatic's ability to assist to 19mph.

 

I don't really want to get drawn in to yet another debate on here about the legality of any particular ebike, but suffice to say that the law is a little like pregnancy - you can't be just a little bit illegal any more than you can be a little bit pregnant.

 

To be legal, an ebike in the UK currently has to have no more than 250 watts at the output shaft of the motor (no exceptions) and not be capable of providing any electrical power assistance above about 15.5 mph. If you are riding an ebike that can exceed either of these limits then it's a moped in the eyes of the law, and no different from the high powered bike that's the topic of this thread. The magnitude of the breach of the law may have some impact on the sentence, but not on whether or not you're convicted. You are no less guilty of committing an offence if you ride a 500W illegal vehicle than if you ride a 2000W illegal vehicle.

 

This may help explain my "holier than thou" comment that was copied here from ES.

 

Jeremy

UK law is 200w continious power output Jeremy, 250w continious is European law. There is no mention of peak power output so the whole thing is a mess but currently under review.

I can see there are few law breakers who want to build powerful car chasers like the one on ebay with 11000 watts, and they have nothing in common with pedal assitted ebikers running 200 watts or 250 watts on trikes and tandems as they dont care about the legalities

of the 1983 road traffic act.

Edited January 30, 201115 yr by stevebills

UK law is 200w continious power output Jeremy, 250w continious is European law. There is no mention of peak power output so the whole thing is a mess but currently under review.

 

Agreed, but currently 250W is accepted in the UK as being the upper continuous power limit, following an acceptance that the UK had no choice but to comply with the EU power and speed limits, hence 25kph, around 15.6mph (rather than 15mph as stated in the old EAPC regulations). The UK is still sitting on the fence with regard to implementing the pedelec regulation that applies in the rest of the EU, but because of the free trade regulations had no choice but to accept EU type approved ebikes (with their 250 watt limit) as being legal.

 

Notwithstanding this, I still defend my position that the majority of UK ebikes, particularly those with hub motors, are illegal, and should, in law, be treated as mopeds, so to have people who ride them being hypocritical about another illegal ebike sticks in my craw.

 

Jeremy

O.k, this thread has been a bigger drag than trying to pedal a 25kg ebike without assistance! No one on this forum doubts that the bike advertised on ebay is anything but dangerous and illegal and it would be more than irresponsible, in fact morally as well as legally criminal to take it out on the roads. Lance armstrong on steroids couldnt pedal anything like those speeds.

It doesnt do our case any good even mentioning such contraptions on our site. Any suggestions on finalised regulations for ebikes should be forwarded to EAPAC. I know ive sent them my tuppence of ideas and its closer to the cyclamatic/deristricted Wisper specs. This is because i believe in the ebikes potential, but it also needs to be useful. Thats why im in favour of retaining the throttle control.Without pedalling. the Wisper goes along at about 14.5 mph on the flat (at least mine does}. But who would actually want to do that for any length of time, running down the battery and losing all exercise benefits? the power tapering off speed is what i believe should be more flexible, tapering off before 20mph, which is still well below what a fit cyclist could cycle. Anyway thats how i feel and i cant be bothered arguing about it.

Ill admit the Torq 1 is a virtual moped, but a fine machine. Mines in the shed with no battery but it could fly up a hill at about 18.5 mph throttle only so ill leave it decommisioned. In fact its free to a good home as i think its a bit too powerful for what i consider to be an ebike.

If the result on the ebike legislation results in lower end powered bikes and worse again pedelec only machines then i.m.h.o the ebike u.k is a dead duck. end of.

Edited January 30, 201115 yr by tonio

You're absolutely right Jeremy, and we've previously agreed on the point you make about the lack of necessity for the universally ignored legal power limit. An assist speed limit is all that is necessary for safety, and the removal of power limits would encourage and result in far wider use of e-bikes.

 

There's obviously almost no hope of that ever coming about though, especially with the influence of EU pedelec law spreading even to those Australian states currently intending to adopt it.

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Without pedalling. the Wisper goes along at about 14.5 mph on the flat (at least mine does}. But who would actually want to do that for any length of time, running down the battery end losing all excercise benefits?

 

This illustrates the vast gulf that exists between our forum enthusiast membership and the mainstream buyers. The largest part if the e-bike market is for utility buyers of budget machines that they tend to use as mopeds. For some years between 2002 and 2007 one of the largest outlets was Thompsons, outselling nearly all the rest in some years. As Thompson himself once said, "Our customers won't pedal!"

 

When you see most of what they sell you'll understand that these are 12 mph "mopeds" with single speed bike gearing that doesn't allow for pedal assistance at over about 8 mph.

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Tonio you have a pm

A pity that Jeremy doesn't realise that we are well aware of the current status of our e-bikes vis-a-vis power.

 

The difference is that most of the bikes we use are restricted to legal speed limits or not capable of much more under power alone anyway. Our supposedly holier-than-thou attitudes are comments on the bikes that flagrantly breach the whole gamut of e-bike laws.

 

Where rational views are concerned, I'd rank the pedelecs forum above Endless Sphere any day.

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Define "rational".

Define "rational".

Don't you have use of a dictionary?:

 

rational adj

1 related to or based on reason or logic.

2 able to think, form opinions, make judgements, etc.

3 sensible; reasonable.

4 sane.

 

(Courtesy of Chambers on-line dictionary.)

 

Colin

Lance armstrong on steroids couldnt pedal anything like those speeds.

 

Don't lets open that can of worms:)

There are two distinct concepts that often confused in this area of debate: electric bicycles and Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles (EAPC). Both electric bicycles and EAPCs have been refered to as "e-bikes" in this thread. So in an attempt to clarify things I'll put forward a couple of definitions.

 

Electric bicycles are bicycles with an electric motor as well as a pedals.

 

Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles are electric bicycles that are so similar to unassisted bicycles in their performance characteristics that the law turns a blind eye to their motor and treats them as if they actually are unassisted bicycles.

 

So in general electric bikes are subject to the same regulations as motorbikes unless they are EPACs.

In common with many of us Patrick, I use electric bikes or e-bikes as shorthand to refer to all groups, while being well aware of the differences.

 

It's not in any way confusion, just being fed up with repeatedly typing the various cumbersome names or using abbreviations which may not always be understood.

 

In fact you are not entirely correct, since electric assist bikes are not necessarily legal within EAPC regulations but electric bikes can be, and it's EAPCs, not EPACs as you've typed.

 

The confused naming situation includes e-bikes, also known as EPVs; pedelecs which are also EAPCs but with power only while pedalling, but EAPC including non-pedelec machines with throttles or switched control systems. Of course the proper name for our bikes is "moped", but that was stolen from us long ago for ignorant and inappropriate use elsewhere.

 

So I'll continue to use the convenience of "e-bikes" to save both my keyboard and my fingers.

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Edited January 31, 201115 yr by flecc

Somewhat conflicted by all of this. Not least because I ride an e-bike that is advertised as illegal and is technically illegal. But here's a huge difference between an Aurora and the kind of thing in the OP or the kind of thing the more extreme people on ES are building.

 

IMHO anything that does 30mph and upwards without pedalling is the electric equivalent of a 50 or 125 motorcycle and should follow the rules for such things. I do not want to see large numbers of unlicensed, uninsured people riding things like this with no training, no insurance and no protective gear.

 

At the other end of the scale, it's hard to get worked up about the Aurora. It's a big heavy workmanlike bicycle that can just hit 20mph on the power. It looks like a bicycle, it rides like a bicycle. It's slower than an energetic MTB or road cyclist. Yes, it's technically illegal, but providing you don't blatantly break the law, it's hard to imagine anyone even noticing. I've had cyclists look at it who had to have it pointed out to them that it was electric. However, I don't especially want to see large numbers of stupid people riding round London (say) on bikes that will easily and routinely do 20mph with no training and no protective gear.

 

So now we get down to that middle ground between a legal assisted 15mph and somewhere around 25 before the motor cuts out. And bearing in mind that it's not hard even on an un-powered bicycle to hit 25-30mph downhill. If we're going to have a legal loophole for untested, untaxed powered bicycles, 15-20mph seems about right to stop the stupid people hurting themselves and others.

 

Then we get to personal choice. The arguments in this thread seem to reflect two attitudes. One is the one my father had and tried to instill in me. The law is the law and you MUST NOT BREAK IT. If it's wrong, work to get it changed. The other is common among people younger than him (and especially motorcyclists). The law is an ass. Treat it as a guide. Try not to screw up. And take your punishment, not complaining too loudly, if you get caught. It's the one that lets us rationalise short bursts of 130mph on roads with good visibility and surface. Yes, it's wildly illegal, but nobody got hurt, did they. (and before we get into born again bikers killing themselves on country roads, I did say "try not to screw up").

 

So then there's the problem of commercial companies selling illegal items. Well as motorcyclists we know all about that, and the end result. For years people have been selling us illegal visors, exhausts, mini numberplates and what have you. And we've been buying them and using them on the road. Eventually we suffer as the law stops them being sold and neuters standard machines. This is what makes me a bit uncomfortable with Alien and others selling and advertising the Aurora and Goldenmotor kits. I don't think it will end up with severe limits on the mainstream industry and the destruction of the aftermarket industry but it might. I don't think we'll end up with TUV approval of bikes and e-bikes but we might. Even then it'll probably still be possible to buy a truly off road electric MX bike or to build one yourself from imported parts.

 

Meanwhile, if you do bicycle things on your slightly illegal E-Bike and don't take the pi55, nobody's even going to notice. Any more than anyone will notice you riding your bicycle on country footpaths. That's illegal too, but we all do it.

quote by flecc.

" But Croydon now has a specialist e-bike only dealer and two other bike shops selling e-bikes as well "

 

sorry to but in on this thread but would like to know where these outlets are please flecc.