Illegal or not illegal??

 

Very simply put, the Wisper and all bikes that have a 250W motor do not comply to UK legislation.

 

In the majority of cases these bikes do however comply to EU legislation, Wisper bikes for instance have been tested independently and comply with EN15194.

 

After very short and simple talks between "the powers that be" and BEBA, we have been told that bikes conforming to either the UK or the EU standard are acceptable and it is very unlikely to be any prosecutions of the riders of such bikes.

 

There are some bike manufacturers that cherry pick, mixing the UK spec to justify a full throttle, then utilising the EU's rules to specify a 250W motor. These bikes do not comply with either EU or UK law and it is my understanding that riders would be open to prosecution.

 

Until the DfT has made it's long awaited ruling, and as long as the bikes are specified within the spirit of the law, I believe that as long as people are sensible, the likelihood of the police being even vaguely interested is remote.

 

Regards

 

David

Edited February 1, 201115 yr by Wisper Bikes

Cheers David - sanity at last.

My point being manufacturers can sell their bikes legally [even Ebay man] ---legallity is down to the end user---in this case CeeGee + 'Wally'.

Edited February 1, 201115 yr by Xcytronex

Hi the answer is simple if you have ANY MAKE off bike and you are not sure

 

 

connect a watts up meter the battery connector and it will record all the power used

 

Or a cycle analyst with a power bridge

 

I would expect with a 36 volt battery to see 500/600 watts

 

But that is peak power not nominal

 

 

You will measure what is pulled from the battery but that's not what the motor pulls or what power the motor produces, unless your local Police Force have some sort of road side Dyno to measure true output you can only guess at the real output...

I bet sales of the Alien 'Aurora ' have improved through this thread !!!!

Would rather have a new Alfine Wisper with off road capability though---

providing bicycle halos aren't made compulsory !!!

I bet sales of the Alien 'Aurora ' have improved through this thread !!!!

 

It's how the sales of the 22 mph Torq 1 expanded in 2006/7 to becoming the top seller.

 

Having an overgeared motor which meant it could only climb well when helped to maintain speed by a strong rider resulted in it being the fastest to get onto the second hand market in quantities too, selling as low as one third of cost at six months old.

 

"All that glisters is not gold" is the relevant ancient saying.

.

H

 

I thought a rolling road measured brake horse power

 

 

Watts is volts X amps

 

 

Frank

Nope, it originates from steam engine output. That formula just proves watt-hours.

There seems to be a little bit of confusion here about units of power and it may be related to my earlier comment in this thread.

 

The regulations are framed in terms of the electric motor mechanical power output, in watts at the motor shaft, not an easy thing to measure without some sort of dynamometer. Even a rolling road measurement wouldn't be that accurate for some types of bike, because it would measure the power at the wheel, rather than at the motor shaft (for a non-geared hub motor this may not matter too much, but it will skew the results for a geared hub motor or a crank drive system).

 

The electrical power input, also measured in watts, will be significantly greater than the mechanical power output, because electric motors are imperfect machines and are always less than 100% efficient.

 

Most ebike electric motors will be around 80 to 90% efficient, and almost certainly never less than about 75% efficient. This means that you can do a rough check to estimate the mechanical power output of the motor by simply measuring the electrical power input. This won't pick up borderline cases, but it's at least good enough to check whether or not a particular ebike is likely to fall inside, or outside, the legal power restrictions. It won't be a foolproof measurement, but will show gross problems with legality fairly well.

 

If you measure the electrical power input, then as long as it doesn't exceed around 330 watts (derived from 250 watts x (1/75%)) then you can probably assume that the ebike is legal. If the electrical power input exceeds this figure, then unless the motor is particularly poor and inefficient (easy to check, as it will run hot - all that power has to go somewhere) then the ebike is probably illegal. If it significantly exceeds this figure, then you can be pretty sure it's illegal.

 

The rules are framed in terms of continuous power, so an ebike controller that over-shoots it's current/power limit for a few seconds and momentarily draws more power may be OK, as long as it doesn't continuously draw excessive power when under maximum demand from the rider.

 

BTW, 1 hp = 746 watts, they are both equally valid units of power, be it mechanically derived or electrically derived, although the official SI unit of power is the watt.

 

Jeremy

Testing

 

So how do they test the bikes to EN15194

 

On a roiling road or electrically

 

Frank

testing

 

Hi sorry i will answer my own question

 

I must apologize for the copyright of this document

 

I have left the owners name on a recognition

 

Boutique AFNOR pour : E-NOV VEHICULES le 3/8/2009 09:33

NF EN 15194:2009-05

Annex D

(informative)

Maximum power measurement - Alternative method

D.1 Generalities

This Annex gives guidance on how to measure the power at the wheel.

The maximum power which the bicycle gives assistance may differ by ± 5% of the power indicated on the label described in Clause 5. During a production conformity check, the maximum speed may differ by ± 10% from the above-mentioned determined value. The test shall be performed without pedalling using only the electrical assistance system (the test bicycle shall be prepared accordingly).

D.2 Test conditions

a) The test may be performed either on a test track, a test bench or on a stand that keeps the motor driven wheel free of the ground.

b) The speed-measuring device should have the following characteristics:  Accuracy: ± 2%  Resolution: 0,1 km/h c) The ambient temperature should be between 5 °C and 35 °C.

d) Maximum wind speed: 3 m/s. e) The battery should be fully charged according to the manufacturer's instructions. f) The test should be performed with mass of the test bicycle equal to 150 kg.

D.3 Test procedure

Any appropriate method for checking for this requirement is acceptable.

a) Pre-condition the EPAC by running it for 5 min at 80% of the maximum assistance speed as declared by the manufacturer.

b) Stop the bicycle.

c) Note the time between the action start and the EPAC to travel 20 meters.

d) Verify the speed value is equal or less than the maximum speed declared by the manufacturer after 20 metres (D).

2D2 e) Verify the maximum continuous rated power at wheel is: P = m × T 3 with the time T which is the

noted value in c).

I don't understand that last formula at all. can someone explain it? Is m the mass of 150kg? What does T3 mean: Is it T cubed? If m is the mass, then the longer the time, the higher the power, which is clearly wrong. Is it T/3?

 

Another point: The test has to be done with a fully charged battery, which can give about 10 -15% higher power than it's normal/average power, which doesn't seem fair!

Yes you would think it would call out for the test to be done at the nominal battery voltage. Also to add to Jeremys post motor efficiency drops with speed so the power output figures could be lower than mentioned, it's all a can of worms really...And peak power is not defined, no mention of duration or limit....

Edited February 1, 201115 yr by NRG

I don't understand that last formula at all. can someone explain it? Is m the mass of 150kg? What does T3 mean: Is it T cubed? If m is the mass, then the longer the time, the higher the power, which is clearly wrong. Is it T/3?

 

I agree, the formula has been considerably garbled somewhere along the line.

 

Assuming constant acceleration, over a distance s, ie 20 metres in this test, we would get acceleration a=2s/(T*T) and force,F= a*m where m is the mass of bike plus rider ie defined to be 150kg in test conditions see point D.2 (d)

 

Total work is force *distance

and power is work/time

 

So power P= m*2s*s/(T*T*T)

 

There is thus quite a bit missing from the formula as quoted by banbury_frank.

 

The whole test description looks a bit sketchy and suspect, even though it gives the some appearance of rigour by quoting tolerances and accuracies. Also I dont particularly see that that the acceleration would necessarily be constant over 20 meters, but I suppose that criticism might be answered by saying that the test just models performance on that assumption, and they have got to make some assumptions to give a definitive go-no-go test.

 

What is interesting to me is to ask how quickly a bike will go with 250 watts applied over 20 metres.

 

I make T cubed = 480

so T=7.8 seconds

and velocity at 20m = 5.1m/s

Edited February 1, 201115 yr by 10mph

or on a stand that keeps the motor driven wheel free of the ground.

 

So measuring the no-load speed?

download

 

sorry I may off lost some off it

 

this is the link for the download

 

Also it IS French

 

And 38 pages long you need page 33

 

Frank

No link in your post, banbury _frank but I have just googled and found an English version at

http://www.vae-enov.com/fiches_2010/norme_en_15194.pdf

 

Page 33 gives the formula P=m*2D*D/(T*T*T) which is what I derived above.

 

The document looks like an official European Standard - French Standard for EPAC Bicycles.

 

Does what the French engineers do in testing matter to us?

I fond the link sory the telephon wang and pot me offff

 

 

http://www.vae-enov.com/fiches_2010/norme_en_15194.pdf

 

Is enybody the wiser

 

Frank

 

Ps have you sen the new alo alo on BBC

 

I have Took at the speling

Edited February 1, 201115 yr by banbury frank

I cnduo't bvleiee taht I culod aulaclty uesdtannrd waht I was rdnaieg. Unisg the icndeblire pweor of the hmuan mnid, aocdcrnig to rseecrah at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mttaer in waht oderr the lterets in a wrod are, the olny irpoamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rhgit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whoutit a pboerlm. Tihs is bucseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey ltteer by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Aaznmig, huh? Yaeh and I awlyas tghhuot slelinpg was ipmorantt! See if yuor fdreins can raed tihs too.

I cnduo't bvleiee taht I culod aulaclty uesdtannrd waht I was rdnaieg. Unisg the icndeblire pweor of the hmuan mnid, aocdcrnig to rseecrah at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mttaer in waht oderr the lterets in a wrod are, the olny irpoamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rhgit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whoutit a pboerlm. Tihs is bucseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey ltteer by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Aaznmig, huh? Yaeh and I awlyas tghhuot slelinpg was ipmorantt! See if yuor fdreins can raed tihs too.

 

Qautily !!!!!!!!!

Excellent Steve & Xcytronex! Especially in the context of this thread......I can't stop laughing!

 

Indalo

jbond - you don't have to be the same 'jbond' from the notobikeparkingcharges lot do you?

 

I'm impressed so many people on here work on "the law is the law". I know a few police people and they themselves happily break some laws, especially traffic ones.

Similarly, people have been found guilty in court of laws they didn't break.

 

I can see that electric bikes will become like a variety of things where those breaking the law do 'spoil' it for those that don't.

My personal opinion is that the very basis this sort of action should it's self be challenged and not accepted as the way it happens.

However, personally I doubt you fill found power levels restricted further - more likely it's made harder to buy legal bikes/kits (as with numberplates - it's not really any harder to buy 'show plates' that were already illegal for public use, but a lot harder to buy legal plates.)

 

Oh and I would certainly agree that the bike in the original case looks rather questionable for sustained 60mph riding - but I've certainly sustained 30mph on must less suitable bikes (no electric, just long steep hills). I actually popped in here thinking there may be some discussion on the bike as thought it might be a good setup to stick in to a real motorbike for electric conversion (though not at the price he's asking.)

And on that, yes, if you regularly ride faster (motor)bikes you do become more accustomed to the environment of going fastish and generally do learn the skills to react better.

Edited February 1, 201115 yr by _g_

I fond the link sory the telephon wang and pot me offff

 

 

http://www.vae-enov.com/fiches_2010/norme_en_15194.pdf

 

Is enybody the wiser

 

Frank

 

Ps have you sen the new alo alo on BBC

 

I have Took at the speling

 

Frank,

 

Are you reading the dosage instructions for your 'aspirin' correctly?

Page 14 is interesting on top speed testing.

 

25kmph max.

+10% for testing accuracy = 27.5kmph

Ride to 1.25 * this = 34.375kmph

Verify that the current taken by the motor is the same as the no-load current.

 

On a geared hub motor, the assist drops to zero when the motor reaches it's no-load rpm and the internal freewheel over-runs.

 

So what they're really saying is that the no-load rpm must not exceed 34.375kmph or 21.36 mph.

 

So the intent is that assist drops off above 15mph and has dropped to zero at 21mph.

 

Given the suggested testing procedure, the power restriction is really about acceleration from zero over 20m. So electronics could be used to deliberately ramp the acceleration from 0-5mph and give an apparent reduction in power. And top speed could be current limited so that the motor only takes 1A or so above 21mph but full current below that.

 

So all those bikes that will do 18-19 mph "de-restricted" may still be inside the legal testing. And the motor could provide 1Kw at 10-15mph and still be legal.

Interesting......good find.....

Hi If that is Ok what a good Find as that is perfect for climbing hills and pulling large people about that is the main problem with current e bikes

 

I think we could all live with the 25 KPH but the US speed would be nice at 22MPH would be perfect as this is available from most Chines bike

 

The new range off controllers are USB programmable so you enter the wheel size and the controller hall sensors count the RPM for a very accurate speed then we can cut out power altogether

 

we can do this today with a infinion controller and a cycle annalist the power cuts out and the bike seems to hesitate

 

these kits available from www.ebikes.ca Homepage of the revolution also a Massive amount of information I have bought from them delivery by Fedex 4 days unfortunately you will have to pay Vat as it is illegal to under value goods in Canada

 

They take PayPal so you money is safe

 

Then we can have a 1 KW Hub motor running at 48 volts Perfect 21 MPH 99 % of the population

 

Makers as the US is a much bigger market than the UK

 

Frank

Edited February 2, 201115 yr by banbury frank