Thanks [mention=4]flecc[/mention] for the details and the very informative OP

 

Actually the reason I looked into EAPC legalese was due to a VESC development discord discussion w.r.t legality of four wheeled pedelec. I was under the impression that EAPC is applicable only for 2 & 3 wheeled ones (IIUC, which 1983 law does state), then I was pointed out that it is not the case with a mention of https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/24/introduction/made, which states

(b)for “bicycles and tricycles”, substitute “pedal cycles with two or more wheels”

Thanks [mention=4]flecc[/mention] for the details and the very informative OP

 

Actually the reason I looked into EAPC legalese was due to a VESC development discord discussion w.r.t legality of four wheeled pedelec. I was under the impression that EAPC is applicable only for 2 & 3 wheeled ones (IIUC, which 1983 law does state), then I was pointed out that it is not the case with a mention of https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/24/introduction/made, which states

 

Indeed, as I said the way they've covered all the aspects of the change in separate documents is a mess. For example covering the major change of removing all weight limits by just saying "remove article 4" without any mention of weight. Unless someone is really diligent that is easily missed, so we still get people posting under the impression that the old weight limits still apply.

 

It all comes down to the mess they made on 10th November 2003 when they failed to implement the original change as legally instructed by the EU, by cancelling the old 1983 law and replacing it with the new. Ever since then they've tried to conceal that big mistake, even to the extent of once telling a police force they could prosecute for 250 watts. Until we intervened and stopped that.

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https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/news/gloucester-news/police-officer-seriously-injured-after-9033430

These electric motorcycles are a far cry from any pedelec, l've seen them around here. Typically the motor is upwards of 1600w with a top speed of 70mph or more.

 

They are readily available online so hardly surprising the local scallys are razzing around on them.

 

Also they are pretty much impossible to catch, hence them regularly being ridden on the main roads and around the local park.

 

And they are so easy to ride, no gears to learn or engine to start. No need to buy fuel or anything else.

And (it appears) often no need for a helmet

And (it appears) often no need for a helmet

Comedian Kenny DeForest dies aged 37 after horror e-bike crash in NYC following failed skull surgery for a brain bleed

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12867489/Kenny-DeForest-dead-37-e-bike-crash-brooklyn.html

 

https://www.met.police.uk/foi-ai/metropolitan-police/d/june-2022/reported-casualties-in-accidentscollisions-involving-e-bikes-electric-bikes-2018-2022/

Indeed, as I said the way they've covered all the aspects of the change in separate documents is a mess. ...

 

That is an understatement! The legislation on what is allowed to be used on restricted roads (including bridleways) is at least as bad, and they have used the words 'road' and 'cycle' incompatibly in different places. And let's not mention the wording of the 1835 act (before bicycles!), some of which has been superseded by common law....

 

I collated everything that I could find at one time, but made several mistakes, and found a good many places where lawyers could have a field day arguing over which wording superseded what.

 

So thank you for your posts - I am no wiser but perhaps better informed.

Hi Flecc.

 

Do you by any chance have a law degree ?

 

I think you do or at least life time of trying to understand law.

 

like my self well the second part of that sentence .

 

I have not read all of your post yet but I will .

 

To cut to the chase how do sensible pedelech riders go about getting some legislation in place that makes common sense.

 

I think first step would be to write to our MP’s.

 

IE if I can ride an E bike faster than 15MPH what on earth is any problem if it can do this speed without using the pedals if I choose to do so.

 

on the road and not on the pavement.

 

In your opinion does an LCD screen that needs a code inputted to make a bike go faster with or without a thumb switch beat any legislation if at the time of a police stop be conforming to the law ?

 

Cheers

Baz

IE if I can ride an E bike faster than 15MPH what on earth is any problem if it can do this speed without using the pedals if I choose to do so.

 

Hi Baz, apologies for such a late reply but I've only just seen your post.

 

The problem with riding with assistance above 15.5 mph (just below 25kph) is that the point at which such a vehicle becomes a motor vehicle is 25kph. So the relevant motor vehicle laws have to apply.

 

I'm opposed to any change since there is far more to this than meets the eye or is commonly realised.

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Hi Baz, apologies for such a late reply but I've only just seen your post.

 

The problem with riding with assistance above 15.5 mph (just below 25kph) is that the point at which such a vehicle becomes a motor vehicle is 25kph. So the relevant motor vehicle laws have to apply.

 

I'm opposed to any change since there is far more to this than meets the eye or is commonly realised.

.

 

Hi sorry for the late reply too , I have been travelling to Vietnam just got here .

 

I do not think One needs to ride Pedelech at any more than 15 MPH under power , but I think there needs to be a change in the legislation to allow electric switch power button to allow a pedal assist bike to be allowed to do up to 15MPH under power without pedals .

 

I personally think it would help with younger people in particular riding very powerful bikes that have not been designed or built for speeds in excess of this.

 

IE a little give here from the law makers would in my opinion be safe and allow a safe speed just from twist and go I personally would like the choice as walk assist speed is a waste of time and does not help with certain aspects of riding.

 

Giving a little more would probably discourage some illegal use of high power e bikes on the roads.

 

I do not see why Pedelechs should be governed by or linked to disabled assistance transport they are completely different methods of transport.

 

But I do agree that speeds of over 15MPH under assistance or twist and go should then fall into a Mophead and Motor Bike category with the relevant safety laws applied.

 

I am still a bit jet lagged but I will be posting some info on the new law changes in Vietnam regarding e bikes here.

Hi sorry for the late reply too , I have been travelling to Vietnam just got here .

 

I do not think One needs to ride Pedelech at any more than 15 MPH under power , but I think there needs to be a change in the legislation to allow electric switch power button to allow a pedal assist bike to be allowed to do up to 15MPH under power without pedals .

 

I personally think it would help with younger people in particular riding very powerful bikes that have not been designed or built for speeds in excess of this.

 

IE a little give here from the law makers would in my opinion be safe and allow a safe speed just from twist and go I personally would like the choice as walk assist speed is a waste of time and does not help with certain aspects of riding.

 

Giving a little more would probably discourage some illegal use of high power e bikes on the roads.

 

I do not see why Pedelechs should be governed by or linked to disabled assistance transport they are completely different methods of transport.

 

But I do agree that speeds of over 15MPH under assistance or twist and go should then fall into a Mophead and Motor Bike category with the relevant safety laws applied.

 

I am still a bit jet lagged but I will be posting some info on the new law changes in Vietnam regarding e bikes here.

That can, if I remember rightly, already be achieved using the 'single vehicle approval' process.

I think there needs to be a change in the legislation to allow electric switch power button to allow a pedal assist bike to be allowed to do up to 15MPH under power without pedals .

 

The problem once again is, what defines a bicycle and separates it from a motor vehicle?

 

The objective was to provide assistance for cycling, not replace cycling, so from the outset here in Europe and elsewhere it was decided that was the need to pedal to make progress. Therefore pedalling was necessary to allow the power.

 

We've always had what you want here and throughout the EU, the low powered moped class L1e-A, which is bicycle based like EAPCs, even allowed up to 1000 watts rating but still restricted to 15.5 mph. But because they are no longer assisted bicycles they are subject to some motor vehicle law, depending which country. Here that means number plate, insurance, driving licence etc and that will not change in our nanny state.

 

And as Matthew points out above, much more recently we were allowed the dodge of type approving any of our EAPCs. This technically makes them motor vehicles but with a UK only concession that we dont have to comply with motor vehicle law when riding here. It has the inconvenience of either taking the EAPC to a testing station to get the check and exemption certificate or paying more to get one with the supplier doing that for you.

 

So forget getting the EAPC law changed, it cannot happen when there's already two existing ways to get what you want.

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That can, if I remember rightly, already be achieved using the 'single vehicle approval' process.

 

Hi Mathew .

Yes I have seen posts on here about that but it’s all a bit of a faff having to go get a test ECT.

 

I am talking about a law change that will allow kits to do this or factory manufactured bikes as standard without any red tape .

 

I am still unsure if my current YOSE kit which is set in the LCD to road legal speed and thumb switch but it can be changed in minutes to an illegal setting by any one who knows how to do it .

 

I recently bought Two on sale or SH kits from YOSE which as far as I can see are new and unused but they have now taken away the advanced settings and the ability to change the speed setting .

 

I am now assuming that my own kit that can be changed by anyone may be illegal or at best could lead to a day in court even if when stopped it’s set at road legal speeds ?

Hi

The problem once again is, what defines a bicycle and separates it from a motor vehicle?

 

The objective was to provide assistance for cycling, not replace cycling, so from the outset here in Europe and elsewhere it was decided that was the need to pedal to make progress. Therefore pedalling was necessary to allow the power.

 

We've always had what you want here and throughout the EU, the low powered moped class L1e-A, which is bicycle based like EAPCs, even allowed up to 1000 watts rating but still restricted to 15.5 mph. But because they are no longer assisted bicycles they are subject to some motor vehicle law, depending which country. Here that means number plate, insurance, driving licence etc and that will not change in our nanny state.

 

And as Matthew points out above, much more recently we were allowed the dodge of type approving any of our EAPCs. This technically makes them motor vehicles but with a UK only concession that we dont have to comply with motor vehicle law when riding here. It has the inconvenience of either taking the EAPC to a testing station to get the check and exemption certificate or paying more to get one with the supplier doing that for you.

 

So forget getting the EAPC law changed, it cannot happen when there's already two existing ways to get what you want.

.

 

Hi Flecc

thanks for the in depth explanation I see why this has come about now the point where a bike becomes a motor vehicle, but I feel the law is a bit outdated now with the latest technology , and I suspect that some of these laws date back to when bikes had small combustion engines fitted during the First World War with number plates ECT.

 

I actually remember there where a lot of moped bikes around in the 1970s with pedals they went out of fashion but now with the latest technology in electric assisted bikes and going back to my first post I can see no logic in not allowing a 15MPH power switch without any further red tape attached and the ability to have on road and private land settings if that’s what one wants.

 

After all if someone takes a standard motor car and soups it up as long as they tell there insurance company no one can do any thing about it .

 

we are talking about bikes that can do 15MPH without use of pedals not the most dangerous things on the road are they !

 

In very low gears you can make a bike go like a power switch any way with very little effort I have now worked out after riding everywhere in Top Gear and eventually realising I was making hard work of things .

 

But then when I was a kid my Raleigh Chopper was mostly stuck in third gear most of the time .

Nanny State !!!! LOL

I am still unsure if my current YOSE kit which is set in the LCD to road legal speed and thumb switch but it can be changed in minutes to an illegal setting by any one who knows how to do it .

My understanding (which could well be wrong) is that is OK (as long as you don't change the settings); that is as long as it won't assist unless you are pedalling and going under 15.5 mph. The switch is then effectively a shortcut to get into max power mode.

 

It is not legal to have a bike operating within the 15.5mph if there is a 'switch' that can break the 15.5mph or pedal requirement limitations. The issue is what is a 'switch'; I understand that a switch is something that can be operated while riding, so a setting that takes minutes and can't be done while riding is OK.

My understanding (which could well be wrong) is that is OK (as long as you don't change the settings); that is as long as it won't assist unless you are pedalling and going under 15.5 mph. The switch is then effectively a shortcut to get into max power mode.

 

It is not legal to have a bike operating within the 15.5mph if there is a 'switch' that can break the 15.5mph or pedal requirement limitations. The issue is what is a 'switch'; I understand that a switch is something that can be operated while riding, so a setting that takes minutes and can't be done while riding is OK.

Hi Sjpt

 

Thanks that’s sounds promising and makes sense ie a LCD screen is not a switch it’s a setting that really you would have to stop and change and in more than One menu.

 

I wonder if one day cars and motor bikes will be limited to actual speed limits and limited as to how fast they are allowed to accelerate .

and only allowed to have any type of motor that can not break a speed limit.

 

After all why buy a sports car that can potentially do 150 MPH if you are then not allowed do so and use it to its full potential .

wow 15MPH using a button on a bike. public enemy number one at that breakneck speed !!! We are

thanks for the in depth explanation I see why this has come about now the point where a bike becomes a motor vehicle, but I feel the law is a bit outdated now with the latest technology , and I suspect that some of these laws date back to when bikes had small combustion engines fitted during the First World War with number plates ECT.

 

Lots of corrections necessary. EAPC law is modern (6th April 2015) and not related to IC engines in any way. All petrol assisted bicycles always had to be registered as motorcycles and mostly ridden with a full motor cycles licence, there was no separate assisted bicycle law back then. You have the wrong war too, the first petrol motors for bicycles arrived in the 1940s after WW2.

 

now with the latest technology in electric assisted bikes and going back to my first post I can see no logic in not allowing a 15MPH power switch without any further red tape attached and the ability to have on road and private land settings if that’s what one wants.

 

It isn't about the technology, safety is primarily about the rider and EAPC riders haven't been tested in any way. So they cannot be allowed motor vehicle legal conditions. e.g. Over 15.5 mph assistance etc. That is the official and only logic.

 

You can have any private land setting you wish, but ONLY on private land, and there is very little of that anywhere.

 

After all if someone takes a standard motor car and soups it up as long as they tell there insurance company no one can do any thing about it .

 

See above, that driver has been tested and approved and they face huge penalties, including prison, if they break the law. And anyone they hurt is covered by insurance, if necessary to many millions of lifetime support. You cannot compare that to anyone of any abilities on an overpowered and over speed, uninsured assisted bike and who might be a hooligan or even criminally mental

 

we are talking about bikes that can do 15MPH without use of pedals not the most dangerous things on the road are they !

 

Bikes at 15mph have killed many times and you were speaking of higher speeds anyway.

 

The beauty of bicycles in law is that they are often rider self correcting. The road bike rider who rides at 25 mph and more and will probably be very fit and relatively young so is likely to have reactions, eyesight and hearing to suit.

 

As they get older they are less able to pedal to higher speeds, suiting their declining reactions, eyesight and hearing.

 

Giving them power assistance then with too much leeway messes up that natural balance, enabling them to ride at super fit roadie style speeds with all the dangers that brings.

 

That alone justifies the law keeping unlicenced riders to moderate speeds when powered.

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Edited January 17, 20251 yr by flecc

15mph on the road is as you say unthreatening, but EAPCs have the privilege of cycle path use where they are in effect the 'aggressor'. Often even 5mph is too fast there: riding has to be highly variable in speed to give safety to more vulnerable users, and that needs to be done in good grace.

 

Highly unlikely at present that any roadside inspection will do any more that check max assist speed, the detail of how settings can be changed probably won't come up.

Lots of corrections necessary. EAPC law is modern (6th April 2015) and not related to IC engines in any way. All petrol assisted bicycles always had to be registed as motorcycles and mostly ridden with a full motor cycles licence, there was no separate assisted bicycle law back then. You have the wrong war too, the first petrol motors for bicycles arrived in the 1940s after WW2.

 

 

 

It isn't about the technology, safety is primarily about the rider and EAPC riders haven't been tested in any way. So they cannot be allowed motor vehicle legal conditions. e.g. Over 15.5 mph assistance etc. That is the official and only logic.

 

You can have any private land setting you wish, but ONLY on private land, and there is very little of that anywhere.

 

 

 

See above, that driver has been tested and approved and they face huge penalties, including prison, if they break the law. And anyone they hurt is covered by insurance, if necessary to many millions of lifetime support. You cannot compare that to anyone of any abilities on an overpowered and over speed, uninsured assisted bike and who might be a hooligan or even criminally mental

 

 

 

Bikes at 15mph have killed many times and you were speaking of higher speeds anyway.

 

The beauty of bicycles in law is that they are often rider self correcting. The road bike rider who rides at 25 mph and more and will probably be very fit and relatively young so is likely to have reactions, eyesight and hearing to suit.

 

As they get older they are less able to pedal to higher speeds, suiting their declining reactions, eyesight and hearing.

 

Giving them power assistance then with too much leeway messes up that natural balance, enabling them to ride at super fit roadie style speeds with all the dangers that brings.

 

That alone justifies the law keeping unlicenced riders to moderate speeds when powered.

.

I would say motorised bicycles became popular before both World Wars. Bicycles with engines came before motorcycles it was only people wanting more power that made the motorcycle more popular than motor bicycles. After WW2 people wanted cheap personal transport, hence the resurgence of the motor bicycle.

As for whether pressing a button a few times constitutes it being a switch remains questionable. I have to press my rear light 5 times to get it to stay on and my phone requires numerous button presses to switch different functions on or off. Perhaps the BBC could make a program clarifying the law on this and other parts of the pedelec law. Imagine the outcry when they realise all e-bikes put out more than 250w.

A few more.

wow 15MPH using a button on a bike. public enemy number one at that breakneck speed !!! We are

 

Why do you need a throttle anyway? PAS is so much better and much more comfortable.

 

As it has been pointed out few times, you can have legal throttle if you want it that much, so where is the problem?

I would say motorised bicycles became popular before both World Wars. Bicycles with engines came before motorcycles it was only people wanting more power that made the motorcycle more popular than motor bicycles. After WW2 people wanted cheap personal transport, hence the resurgence of the motor bicycle.

 

And once again people wanting more power, so the scooters from Vespa, Lambretta etcetera quickly killed off the assisted bicycle from the mid 1950s!

 

I'm aware of those early ones you illustrated but discount them since few were still realistically usable as bicycles, and so many used a clumsy powered third wheel. Plus electric assisted bicycles came before most of them. Humber even had an e-assisted tandem in the 1890s, but the electric ones were mostly just as impractical due to lead acid battery weights and sizes.

 

Later in the 1920s and '30s the industry stopped trying convince the petrol powered ones were still bicycles and changed to calling them Autocycles with more weight and less bicycle like design.

 

It wasn't until the 1940s as said when ordinary bicycles with add-on assistance petrol motors were still fully usable as practical bicycles alone.

.

I'm just short of 80 years old, and I can't imagine starting from a standing start without a throttle....my wife has a Freego Regency dated 2014....throttle legal.....I have the same bike....2018..throttle is illegal......a nonsense.........

I'm just short of 80 years old, and I can't imagine starting from a standing start without a throttle....my wife has a Freego Regency dated 2014....throttle legal.....I have the same bike....2018..throttle is illegal......a nonsense.........

 

You can legally have throttle from a standing start on any EAPC, but only up to 4mph to get you rolling. After that the power has to be maintained by pedalling.

.

Perhaps the BBC could make a program clarifying the law on this and other parts of the pedelec law. Imagine the outcry when they realise all e-bikes put out more than 250w.

 

The biggest fuss would be from the moped interests. They are well aware of the true EAPC power situation but happy so long as it is presented as 250 watts, which is why they agreed to it originally.

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