Yes, I think you're right there Jim.........and apparently a bulldog who cant spell.....as its scarrabri, NOT scarberrie/scarlatti .....as they always say...you cant buy good manners.....
Lynda
A Crank Call
- Thread starter Graeme
- Start date
Lynda
There a very limited options for those wishing to purchase a Crank Drive at a reasonable price. I know the price of a bike is relative etc. but I do wonder what the retail mark up is on these Panasonic and Bosch system bikes?
It's not that I can't pay it's just that I'm not prepared to, they are I suspect well overpriced. You pay for what you get they say, I say 'they' control the market and have a monopoly, and I refuse to buy into it. The industry needs more choice and pricing options and more competition. The total reliance on Hub motors by retailers, even by those new to the market could prove to be very short sighted and in the long run detrimental to the industry as a whole.
The Tonaro (I've learnt to speile it poper nuw) Esprit, (and other Tonaro models) seems like a welcome addition to this segment of the market. I for one will be watching with interest for reviews of the Tonaro Esprit from unbiased, no axe to grind, genuine customers/owners.
As always thanks to all the Bulldogs Poodles Rottweilers Greyhounds and Spaniels who contributed to this thread.
It's not that I can't pay it's just that I'm not prepared to, they are I suspect well overpriced. You pay for what you get they say, I say 'they' control the market and have a monopoly, and I refuse to buy into it. The industry needs more choice and pricing options and more competition. The total reliance on Hub motors by retailers, even by those new to the market could prove to be very short sighted and in the long run detrimental to the industry as a whole.
The Tonaro (I've learnt to speile it poper nuw) Esprit, (and other Tonaro models) seems like a welcome addition to this segment of the market. I for one will be watching with interest for reviews of the Tonaro Esprit from unbiased, no axe to grind, genuine customers/owners.
As always thanks to all the Bulldogs Poodles Rottweilers Greyhounds and Spaniels who contributed to this thread.
That seems like a nicely put point of view to me Graeme and I empathise to a degree with your remarks. I'm not sure to whom you refer as "they" but I'd be surprised to discover any monopoly, duopoly or cartel among bike producers or retailers given the huge breadth of both bicycle types/prices and the global nature of product placement.
Judging from what I've seen of bicycle prices both here and in europe, bikes seem to me to be priced as I would expect, given the cost of cars, motorcycles and scooters. On the matter of battery manufacture and pricing, (which I know you didn't mention) I firmly believe we are all being ripped off and I suspect accusations such as you suggest referring to "they" may well be more appropriately levelled at that industry but that's another matter.
I do agree with you that more choice, competition and pricing would be beneficial to the consumer although things have improved markedly in recent months, it has to be said. I'm not sure where the market in hub-driven bikes can go as the choice there is already huge and the envelope can't be stretched much further in terms of legally-compliant bikes. A greater choice of crank-drive machines would be welcome and I suppose we should be grateful to Bosch for entering the market with something that does challenge the Panasonic dominance of that sector.
It'll be interesting to see how things are in the ebike market once all the hype surrounding Bosch-powered bikes has died down. It occurs to me that prices of the "premium" brands may fall off somewhat as with the extended battery range and life of the latest models, people may be hanging on to their ebikes a bit longer than previously and it's still a limited market.
Regards,
Indalo
I also cannot help thinking that crank drive bikes do seem too expensive. I bought my Giant Lafree Twist Lite for £900 in 2004. It is based on the original Panasonic crank drive system and had 3 speed hub gears and came with a 24V 6.5Ah NiMH battery. After allowing for inflation, this would be about £1000 now. Where can I buy a quality crank drive bike for £1000 now? The closest 3 speed Kalkhoff, with a 8Ah battery costs £1495.
indalo
Like you I would be surprised if a 'formal' cartel or monopoly exists, what I suspect is a very high level of profitability with neither Panasonic or Bosch having any interest whatsoever in a price war! I assume they know their market very well and can pitch their prices at a point that is affordable for those in advanced years (on the whole, no offence to anyone ) and with a fair level of disposable income. When that harvest has been well and truly reaped then the plebs will be the next field to target... End of Wild Speculation.
On the battery side of things, yes I am shocked at the prices of some batteries and it has ruled some good hub models out for me.
Again I can only point to Tonaro replacement batteries at about £250.
I really am sounding like a Tonaro 'plant' now so I'll stop.
All I want is a fair product at a fair price, including batteries and backup, I don't feel I get that from Panasonic or Bosch.
I await to see from reviews and hopefully a personal trial of the Tonaro Esprit when it becomes available.
It seems to me that the E-Bike industry has come a long way, but in some ways still seems to be in the very formative stages.
Like you I would be surprised if a 'formal' cartel or monopoly exists, what I suspect is a very high level of profitability with neither Panasonic or Bosch having any interest whatsoever in a price war!
I assume they know their market very well and can pitch their prices at a point that is affordable for those in advanced years (on the whole, no offence to anyone ) and with a fair level of disposable income. When that harvest has been well and truly reaped then the plebs will be the next field to target... End of Wild Speculation.On the battery side of things, yes I am shocked at the prices of some batteries and it has ruled some good hub models out for me.
Again I can only point to Tonaro replacement batteries at about £250.
I really am sounding like a Tonaro 'plant' now so I'll stop.
All I want is a fair product at a fair price, including batteries and backup, I don't feel I get that from Panasonic or Bosch.
I await to see from reviews and hopefully a personal trial of the Tonaro Esprit when it becomes available.
It seems to me that the E-Bike industry has come a long way, but in some ways still seems to be in the very formative stages.
It's not only inflation, it's the massive depreciation of sterling against the dollar and euro. When we first placed an order for Kalkhoffs, the rate was about €1.43 to £1. It's been as low as €1.05 since 2008 and is around €1.14 at the moment. Back when we were buying bikes in dollars in 2006-2007, you could get nearly $2 to the pound, now it's nearer £1.60. Big difference, even before you consider the VAT increase.
Fully agree on the Tonaro brand arrival, the more choice the better for all of us and they really do fill a gap in the market.
Despite the impressions of retailers stocks of e-bikes in the UK, hub motors have been losing out substantially to crank drives since 2007, and the main maker, Suzhou Bafang, have been the most affected. The earlier Panasonic unit in the Giant Lafree sold in tiny quantities outside Japan, taking six years to reach 20,000 worldwide. They are selling many times that every year now with the new unit.
Crank drives are now on the market in various places from Panasonic, Daum, Bosch, Pacific, Cyclone, Elation, Yamaha, Tonaro, Optibike, Stokemonkey and Gruber. Not a bad increase from just two types five years ago.
.
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Thanks for the criticism and personal attacks chaps! I have just read through this thread and end of page 4 was when it started going downhill.....when scarrabri responded to my post below. Sorry but see nothing wrong with my contribution up until then.
By the way thanks for the spelling lesson as well! While you’re about picking fault with mine, I suggest you look at your pals as well and his punctuation.........
Originally Posted by eddieo
How Bosch and Tonero can be discussed in the same sentence is laughable IMO. Tonero heavy low tech, and the ugliest bike I have ever seen, just look at the motor! frame even worse! Only catching on because of the price? More moped then e bike IMO.
while a Bosch powered bike by comparison Is stylish, normal wheelbase, lightweight (many under 20 kg mine 21) strong performance, will climb a wall, and it looks like a modern cutting edge bike. So what that it costs more...You pays for what you gets in this life
saying that My wisper DaaHub on a very good bike is far and away the better bike then any crank or hub bike I have ever ridden and I have tried the best.....Like I alsways say you need to ride the things and try and lift them on a rack or put them in a car. It will soon become clear which are the best bikes.....
scarrabri
Hold on ive just wet meself eddieo reading the Garbage you have just wrote ,let me just go and have a good chuckle ,have you got the Tonaro mixed up with one of your own push bikes ,lol even the very name Tonaro strikes fear in to the the average e/biker as not many could tame the awesome power of this beast ,let alone stay onboard at full power ,i can quite understand why you have not quite got to grips with understanding the full potential of such an outstanding E/bike, as the Tonaro is not just a sit and ride bike ,she has to be handled with loving care ,not treated like a goat ,and as for the Bosch
climbing a wall lol ,the Grand Tonaro takes on Mountains ,my very best wishes to you my friend ,Brian.
Yes, and in 2004 there were about 200 Yen to the pound versus about 125 Yen now. I know a case can be made for the price of the 3 speed Kalkhoff based on exchange rates and arguably it is a better quality bike than my original Giant, but it still seems too much! When I bought my Giant it seemed too much as well though.
I had hoped that the with the passage of time steady improvements in the technology and economies of scale the price might actually come done in real terms, as it has done with TVs and computers.
Come on Eddie....you know exactly what I meant by that remark and it wasnt about general spelling.......
Lynda
The crucial missing factor in this discussion is that Giant had to pack in making those Panasonic powered Lafree bikes because they found it impossible to make any profit at all, at times making a substantial loss on each bike. The pricing of them in the UK ranged from £849 to £1149, depending on model, those being the Twist Lite, Comfort and Comfort ST. That's why they had to switch to a cheap bought in Sanyo hub motor to market a lowish priced bike called the Suede.
That still didn't achieve a profit and caused problems due to the "down to a price" battery and charger. So still using the Sanyo hub motor, they re-specified the bike to make it better quality and marketed it as the new Twist 1 and 2 models at double the previous prices.
So as you can see, Tim is absolutely right in his explanation of the position vis-a-vis the Giant series.
We have quite a few of the Agattu C3 to sell in some sizes, so if you call us up, you might get a bargain.
My Giant turned out to be a bargain then!
Pleased to hear it. It has certainly saved me thousands in public transport fares and when considered in comparison, these bikes are good value. The cost of a London 1-2 zone annual travelcard is £1104.
I assume that Derby Cycles must be making money on their bikes, so maybe my hopes regarding a drop in price has been realised? i.e. the manufacturing cost has dropped, but this has been offset by inflation, exchange rates and a decent margin.
Pleased to hear it. It has certainly saved me thousands in public transport fares and when considered in comparison, these bikes are good value. The cost of a London 1-2 zone annual travelcard is £1104.
I assume that Derby Cycles must be making money on their bikes, so maybe my hopes regarding a drop in price has been realised? i.e. the manufacturing cost has dropped, but this has been offset by inflation, exchange rates and a decent margin.
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So, are we to assume that the manufacturers and retailers are barely scrapping a crust from their buisiness's?
And so did mine, the same model, I bought it for £849 before the increase you suffered. Despite saying I didn't want a discount, Paul at BikePlus threw in some extras.
Those selling the higher price ranges do very well in "the season", and even the lower price people are at least comfortable then.
Things get tough off season though, the higher price guys getting through, though often with borrrowings. Lower price sellers often fail later in the off season period and I've lost count of the many who've done that. It's a few names every year though, victims of our long UK winter period.
Hi Eddie . My appologese to you my friend , we should not fall out ,we are all on this wonderful forum for the same reason, i know you dont like the way i put things ,but thats the way i am ,i respect some of the things you write ,but i also reserve the wright to chalange what you say ,its good to talk ,i hope we can put this behind us and maybe battle away as friends ,any way best wishes ,Brian ,ps please dont check my spelling or where the full stops are ,as i never was any good at writing ,best wishes Matey Brian.
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