Thanks Flecc, but am I missing something here? The motor on a 16 inch wheel must turn faster (though I guess at lower torque on start-up - depending on the weight of machine and rider) to maintain a given speed than that in a 700c wheel? BTW the speed is capped at 15.5 on the Trek.
Anyone else ordered Trek nano (Cytronex)?
- Thread starter Chris_Bike
- Start date
There are different hub revs versions Chris, like 160 rpm and 190 rpm, and higher up ones as well I think. So a low rev version in a small wheel makes for great hill climbing and not much speed. Like many manufacturers, Tongxin have catered for 20" wheels, but when that motor is placed in 16" it's automatically geared down by 20% of course.
.
That's right. Tongxin does a 160 rpm for 15mph in 700c wheels, a 260 rpm which is used in the Brompton Nano, plus a couple of intermediate speeds.
John,
Good luck with your choice. Having both a Wisper and a Tongxin motor in my electric bike collection, I have no doubt which is the most pleasant and fun to ride and equally little doubt which has been the most reliable!
If the Trek guys genuinely believe that their set-up is reliable and have tested it, and can explain why theirs has succeeded when others have failed, it would be a very attractive bike....
John,
Good luck with your choice. Having both a Wisper and a Tongxin motor in my electric bike collection, I have no doubt which is the most pleasant and fun to ride and equally little doubt which has been the most reliable!
If the Trek guys genuinely believe that their set-up is reliable and have tested it, and can explain why theirs has succeeded when others have failed, it would be a very attractive bike....
I hope that the 'most pleasant and fun to ride' and 'the most reliable' are the same bike
John
...I hate to be a sceptic but have they really done 'thousands of miles' on these bikes?
How many thousands and over what period of time?
How long have they been testing, how old is the version of the controller they are using? How many controllers have they had fail on them, and can they say under what circumstances the controller would be expected to fail...?
I'd like to believe in this, think it is potentially a great product, but given my own experience with it and that of others, I'd ask more questions and press for more specific answers before handing over a significant amount of money!
How many thousands and over what period of time?
How long have they been testing, how old is the version of the controller they are using? How many controllers have they had fail on them, and can they say under what circumstances the controller would be expected to fail...?
I'd like to believe in this, think it is potentially a great product, but given my own experience with it and that of others, I'd ask more questions and press for more specific answers before handing over a significant amount of money!
The point they were emphasising to everyone that tried the bike wasn't that the power came in at 5mph but that you shouldn't even turn the power on until you reached 5mph because they said it would burn out the controller, so sounds like they may have had some problems in that area.
We thought the bike was great to ride (although weird being powered without the rider doing anything!) and nice to see some new ideas, but not quite as "polished" as some of the better known makes, but that could well be the attraction to some people. It would certainly suit a commuter with perhaps one or two long but not steep climbs and you could take the battery to work with you if you were going by train and the bike would look very ordinary if left at the station.
If only!I hope that the 'most pleasant and fun to ride' and 'the most reliable' are the same bike
John
.
I agree it's more comfortable dealing with an established brand, but new guys need to get started too. I am confident enough to give it a go. You are right that they believe in it and I feel the one year warranty is genuine.Hi Chris
Yes I too think that as they have designed this themselves rather than importing, they obviously believe very much in their product, and that definately came across too when you discussed it with them.
Thats why its such a hard decision for me to pick one, Trek-Nano or Wisper
decisions, decisions!!!
John
The real point is that the bike felt sooooooo good. Really different from the heavyweights around. My outlook is no doubt coloured by a (long distant) past as a serious racer and two kids who do in now (on bikes weighing half of even the Trek Nano!).
Chris
The hub motor is the lightest around but it is not that much lighter. The main weight difference you noticed is down to the smaller battery. Once you up the capacity for speed/range you are back to a heavyweight similar to the others.
With respect John, the weight difference is mostly down to the weight of the original bike (probably about 25lb) which is essentially a production hybrid with middle-range equipment on it. If you put the trek conversion on a seriously light bike with some of the carbon gizmo's that my two road-racing sons regularly use, you really would have a machine! Whilst the motor is light, the battery (at 2.1Kg) is actually heavier on a per watt basis than the beautifully equipped (but much heavier) Agattu/Pro-Select.
Interestingly, I have just had a long phone conversation with Mark (No-Hills.com) who has developed this conversion. He had some very interesting things to say about the questions raised in this thread and as soon as his registration on the site is approved, he will be posting some details that I think many will find interesting.
Anyway, the proof of the pudding etc...... I will certainly tell you guys of all our experiences (good and bad) when the bikes arrive.
Chris
Interestingly, I have just had a long phone conversation with Mark (No-Hills.com) who has developed this conversion. He had some very interesting things to say about the questions raised in this thread and as soon as his registration on the site is approved, he will be posting some details that I think many will find interesting.
Anyway, the proof of the pudding etc...... I will certainly tell you guys of all our experiences (good and bad) when the bikes arrive.
Chris
Cyrtonex queries
I’m responding to this thread as the manufacturer of Cytronex - at last managed to get the site permissions!
First of all, sorry for the lack of information. We made a decision to launch the bike at Presteigne even though we knew that the web sites and marketing materials would not be ready. We did so because we wanted to support this excellent event. Our web designers are working flat out to get both no-hills.com and cytronex.com up and running. I can assure you there will be very full details on our system soon.
Now to answer the questions in this thread.
First of all - is it the same motor as the Brompton Nano and is it more powerful?
It is the same Tongxin motor but a major part of our 18 months of development has been getting the optimum power delivery. Torque is not just to do with the motor (or indeed the controller) - the ability to deliver power is heavily dependent on the battery and wiring. If the battery cannot supply enough power you won’t get it from the motor. We are using a special high drain NiMh cell in our battery which no one else in the industry is using. We tested it against a lithium packs during development and found a huge increase in torque. The cells also mean we can recharge much faster – one hour for a journey of about 12 miles.
But the proof of the pudding is in the eating and with just one decrepit rider (i.e. me) and having driven though the night to get our bikes there in time I still managed 3rd in the hill climb and equal 5th in the road race at Presteigne.
Secondly, is the range 20 miles?
We feel that 20 miles is actually slightly conservative, we get at least 20 miles in our area (Winchester) which is very hilly. For example we tested the battery that I used in the one hour Presteigne endurance race and found that it still had one third of the energy left. Admittedly I had to cut the power through the parts of the industrial estate and grave yard, because 90psi tyres were not well suited to the bumpy ride, but the bike maintained full power throughout the race – not bad for a battery weighing 2.1Kg and the size of a waterbottle!
Is there a reliability issue with Tongxin?
It would make no sense at all for us to launch a high quality product with mass appeal if we knew we were storing up problems for ourselves. We have done thousands of miles with our prototypes with no failures at all. I have also seen and researched the references to controller problems on the web and found that they originate from very few sources. Given that Tongxin apparently sell in the region of 170,000 systems that is not bad. We will see once we get the unit out there but I don't think it is fair to pre-judge us before we have even despatched our first bike! Our objective is to provide fantastic after sales service and if there is a problem with a motor for example you can just send the easy release wheel back to us for replacement.
I would agree that Tongxin have not done themselves any favours in the past by failing to check compatibility issues. One good example of this is the Schwinn bike. My understanding is that Schwinn did not use a Tongxin controller, they used one which was underpowered and insufficiently cooled and this is one reason that their product failed. I say one, because they also used a system of operation that we rejected immediately. I am also told that Schwinn have just received a very large order of Tongxin controllers, which would surely not be the case if this was the one they used in the first place?
During our testing phase we had a bike wired up with all manner of sensors, we did not find any issues whatsoever with our controllers overheating so I have no idea where these purported problems emanate from or indeed whether any of them are the Tongxin controllers at all. One further point is that our controllers are produced especially for us, to our specification, in order to handle large currents.
Will the controller burn out if used at less than 5mph?
The answer to this in our tests was no, we did not replicate this fault. Neither did we find overheating of the controller. I did not say to anyone it would burn out at less than 5mph! I said that it is a sensorless motor which means that it does not know where it is until it starts moving. Given the amount of energy used in a zero start which on a 'proper bike' is anyway unecessary we thought it would be prudent to stipulate 5mph minimum. To do a hill start on the bike you put the bike in third gear, choose the low speed setting then start moving, press the boost button and as the bike accelerates to say 7mphish press the speed button again and you will be up to full speed fast. Our product is an efficiency-based solution designed for people who want to get there fast and efficiently. Yes it is designed for commuters, we want to get people out of cars and cycling to work.
Power to weight ratio:
The Cytronex powered Trek FX bike weighs 17Kg and has a great deal of torque, as those who tried it on steep hills will testify. What counts is power to weight ratio, and a fit cyclist can ride a Cytronex powered bike up an average hill at 19-20mph if fitted with an ‘off road’ motor. This motor will have the same power as the legal one but is higher speed as already pointed out in this forum. Our design is very quick and easy to swap wheels - twist the waterproof connector and pull down and then just undo the wheel nuts. This was the motor I used in the race and the hill climb. I should have chosen a slower motor for the hill climb but I heard that it was only 0.5 mile which I can sustain at about 17-18mph. So I was a long way ahead and when I saw another half mile of relentless climb I suddenly lost the will to live! As a result the speed dropped down in to the low torque zone of the motor and I dropped from about 18 to about 12mph! Next year I will know and will step down a speed or two.
Our stand at Presteigne was hugely over subscribed for test rides and I lost count of the number of times I heard ‘you have the best bike here’, ‘this is the best ride’ and ‘it’s a proper bike’. I came third in the hill climb and fifth in the road race despite being 43 and not being a competitive cyclist. I suppose some people might be worried about the competition posed by a 17Kg bike that looks like an unassisted bike but in the end people will try our bike and judge for themselves. I invite anyone (particularly those who have raised queries about our product) to come here to Winchester and try Cytronex, just email mark@no-hills.com. I am certain you will be impressed!
I’m responding to this thread as the manufacturer of Cytronex - at last managed to get the site permissions!
First of all, sorry for the lack of information. We made a decision to launch the bike at Presteigne even though we knew that the web sites and marketing materials would not be ready. We did so because we wanted to support this excellent event. Our web designers are working flat out to get both no-hills.com and cytronex.com up and running. I can assure you there will be very full details on our system soon.
Now to answer the questions in this thread.
First of all - is it the same motor as the Brompton Nano and is it more powerful?
It is the same Tongxin motor but a major part of our 18 months of development has been getting the optimum power delivery. Torque is not just to do with the motor (or indeed the controller) - the ability to deliver power is heavily dependent on the battery and wiring. If the battery cannot supply enough power you won’t get it from the motor. We are using a special high drain NiMh cell in our battery which no one else in the industry is using. We tested it against a lithium packs during development and found a huge increase in torque. The cells also mean we can recharge much faster – one hour for a journey of about 12 miles.
But the proof of the pudding is in the eating and with just one decrepit rider (i.e. me) and having driven though the night to get our bikes there in time I still managed 3rd in the hill climb and equal 5th in the road race at Presteigne.
Secondly, is the range 20 miles?
We feel that 20 miles is actually slightly conservative, we get at least 20 miles in our area (Winchester) which is very hilly. For example we tested the battery that I used in the one hour Presteigne endurance race and found that it still had one third of the energy left. Admittedly I had to cut the power through the parts of the industrial estate and grave yard, because 90psi tyres were not well suited to the bumpy ride, but the bike maintained full power throughout the race – not bad for a battery weighing 2.1Kg and the size of a waterbottle!
Is there a reliability issue with Tongxin?
It would make no sense at all for us to launch a high quality product with mass appeal if we knew we were storing up problems for ourselves. We have done thousands of miles with our prototypes with no failures at all. I have also seen and researched the references to controller problems on the web and found that they originate from very few sources. Given that Tongxin apparently sell in the region of 170,000 systems that is not bad. We will see once we get the unit out there but I don't think it is fair to pre-judge us before we have even despatched our first bike! Our objective is to provide fantastic after sales service and if there is a problem with a motor for example you can just send the easy release wheel back to us for replacement.
I would agree that Tongxin have not done themselves any favours in the past by failing to check compatibility issues. One good example of this is the Schwinn bike. My understanding is that Schwinn did not use a Tongxin controller, they used one which was underpowered and insufficiently cooled and this is one reason that their product failed. I say one, because they also used a system of operation that we rejected immediately. I am also told that Schwinn have just received a very large order of Tongxin controllers, which would surely not be the case if this was the one they used in the first place?
During our testing phase we had a bike wired up with all manner of sensors, we did not find any issues whatsoever with our controllers overheating so I have no idea where these purported problems emanate from or indeed whether any of them are the Tongxin controllers at all. One further point is that our controllers are produced especially for us, to our specification, in order to handle large currents.
Will the controller burn out if used at less than 5mph?
The answer to this in our tests was no, we did not replicate this fault. Neither did we find overheating of the controller. I did not say to anyone it would burn out at less than 5mph! I said that it is a sensorless motor which means that it does not know where it is until it starts moving. Given the amount of energy used in a zero start which on a 'proper bike' is anyway unecessary we thought it would be prudent to stipulate 5mph minimum. To do a hill start on the bike you put the bike in third gear, choose the low speed setting then start moving, press the boost button and as the bike accelerates to say 7mphish press the speed button again and you will be up to full speed fast. Our product is an efficiency-based solution designed for people who want to get there fast and efficiently. Yes it is designed for commuters, we want to get people out of cars and cycling to work.
Power to weight ratio:
The Cytronex powered Trek FX bike weighs 17Kg and has a great deal of torque, as those who tried it on steep hills will testify. What counts is power to weight ratio, and a fit cyclist can ride a Cytronex powered bike up an average hill at 19-20mph if fitted with an ‘off road’ motor. This motor will have the same power as the legal one but is higher speed as already pointed out in this forum. Our design is very quick and easy to swap wheels - twist the waterproof connector and pull down and then just undo the wheel nuts. This was the motor I used in the race and the hill climb. I should have chosen a slower motor for the hill climb but I heard that it was only 0.5 mile which I can sustain at about 17-18mph. So I was a long way ahead and when I saw another half mile of relentless climb I suddenly lost the will to live! As a result the speed dropped down in to the low torque zone of the motor and I dropped from about 18 to about 12mph! Next year I will know and will step down a speed or two.
Our stand at Presteigne was hugely over subscribed for test rides and I lost count of the number of times I heard ‘you have the best bike here’, ‘this is the best ride’ and ‘it’s a proper bike’. I came third in the hill climb and fifth in the road race despite being 43 and not being a competitive cyclist. I suppose some people might be worried about the competition posed by a 17Kg bike that looks like an unassisted bike but in the end people will try our bike and judge for themselves. I invite anyone (particularly those who have raised queries about our product) to come here to Winchester and try Cytronex, just email mark@no-hills.com. I am certain you will be impressed!
Photo of Cytronex powered Trek FX 7.3
Forgot to include a photo of our Cytronex Powered Trek 7.3 FX
Forgot to include a photo of our Cytronex Powered Trek 7.3 FX
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Cyclezee
Guest
Welcome to Pedelec Mark. Your bike has certainly generated a lot of interest and I wish you sucess with it.
It would be nice if you could supply more photos and comprehensive specification.
John
It would be nice if you could supply more photos and comprehensive specification.
John
I'll leave Mark to comment on the electrical spec John, but the bike is basically a Trek 7.3 FX (Trek Bikes | Bikes | Road. Aluminium frame and usual Trek mix of Bontrager/Shimano components, mostly mtb. Some components are OEM and quality level is Deore for the bikies out there.
Chris
Last edited:
C
Cyclezee
Guest
Obviously, this setup could offered as a kit to fit lots of bikes, or am I missing something?
John
John
It looks like an excellent commuting solution which I may recommend to my parents as they are in the market for some e-bikes that are light weight as they need to lift them on to the back of a camper van. I look forward to seeing some reviews soon.
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