Can this happen when using your ebike?

[rog_london]

At the risk of sounding utterly confused (because I am) - I don't want to be too pedantic about the issue of legality but.....

ebikes in the UK have an exemption from road traffic regs, fine, got that, so it would be very unusual for a magistrate to have an effect on the ebiker's driving license regardless of the law that has been broken.

And so ebikes are actually classed as bicycles regardless of their power output or function, so in effect, anything goes as far as the law is concerned, is that correct? Unless you have a plate fitted and everything else meets the current legislation, you are not in the class of an ebike (does the ebike class exist)?

So a home build high power, throttle only machine is no different to a big brand plateless machine in terms of it's vehicle class and legal status?

It depends.....

As has been said there are many legal gray areas. However, one area which does not appear to be gray is the one regarding 'maximum assisted speed'. If the motor helps you significantly above 15.5 mph then it's no longer an e-bike but a motor vehicle in the eyes of the law.

This would apply to a complete powered bike you may have bought or one where you or someone else has fitted a kit to an existing bike.

Enforcing the rule would be a little trickier. We don't know whether the 15.5 mph is in effect cast in stone or whether you're allowed the usual '10% plus 2' allowance which is generally given by magistrates when enforcing motor vehicle speed limits. AFAIK there have been no test cases as yet.

Most of us wouldn't want to take too big a chance, as the penalties could be dire. As has been said before, once your 'e-bike' is considered to be a motor vehicle you could be in line for confiscation, points on or loss of licence, and a fine. It's likely that the assisted speed issue will be the critical thing at present.

I'd suggest that no-one purchases anything which is clearly advertised as being illegal in the UK or Europe if they intend to use it on the road. That would establish a presumption of the fact that the rider would know perfectly well he/she was breaking the law.

Rog.

 

[eTim]

see my post on the first page of this thread...it should explain it for you

Dan at the risk of being an utter pedant, there is at least one mistake in your list of criteria and that is the speed limit is 15.5 mph not 15 mph, I stand to be corrected though

Edit: Dan, given the fact that NOT having a manufacturers plate on the bike makes the bike illegal, then what category does the bike fall under (regardless of other factors)?

Is it a bicycle or a powered motor vehicle (a simple question that nobody appears to be able to answer!)????

 

[eTim]

I'd suggest that no-one purchases anything which is clearly advertised as being illegal in the UK or Europe if they intend to use it on the road. That would establish a presumption of the fact that the rider would know perfectly well he/she was breaking the law.

Rog.

A fair comment, I don't think any ebike is advertised as being illegal in any way, some come with a warning about for use offroad only, but this is technically incorrect anyway as they should be advertised for use on private land only. Offroad (meaning dirt tracks most likely byways) are still classed as public highway, question is, is a bicycle or ebike subject to the same rules as for a metalled public road when it is on a byway?

However if the 10% +2 did apply, then effectively the top speed allowable could be:

19.05 mph

What an utterly confusing mess, no-one on here has a clear answer, it's no wonder magistrates get it wrong, never mind the police!!

 

[Patrick]

Dan at the risk of being an utter pedant, there is at least one mistake in your list of criteria and that is the speed limit is 15.5 mph not 15 mph, I stand to be corrected though

Under the UK legislation the limit is 15 mph, under European legislation the limit is 25 kph which is approximately 15.534 mph.

Further illumination can be found at
http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/articles/3/1/Dft-Factsheet---Electrically-Assisted-Pedal-Cycles-EAPCs-in-Great-Britain/Page1.html

 

[eTim]

Under the UK legislation the limit is 15 mph, under European legislation the limit is 25 kph which is approximately 15.534 mph.

Further illumination can be found at
http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/articles/3/1/Dft-Factsheet---Electrically-Assisted-Pedal-Cycles-EAPCs-in-Great-Britain/Page1.html

Thanks, it is academic anyway, if you don't have a manufacturers plate fitted you are riding an illegal vehicle of some sort - so assuming this, which legislation would apply should you find yourself in court, caught riding an illegal vehicle?

 

[Alex728]

assuming it was ever viewed as proportionate it would be the regs about illegal motorcycles..

however at least on the Wisper there is a prominent and permanent label on the motor marked Suzhou Bafang, 36V 250W and a CE mark which I expect suffices under the EU laws.

 

[dan]

Dan at the risk of being an utter pedant, there is at least one mistake in your list of criteria and that is the speed limit is 15.5 mph not 15 mph, I stand to be corrected though

Edit: Dan, given the fact that NOT having a manufacturers plate on the bike makes the bike illegal, then what category does the bike fall under (regardless of other factors)?

Is it a bicycle or a powered motor vehicle (a simple question that nobody appears to be able to answer!)????

Tim
If an electric bike meets the requirements of exemption it is classed as a bicycle and as such is not classed as a motor vehicle.

If an electric bike does not meet the requirements of expemption it would be treated as a motor vehicle, and most probably fall into the class of a low powered moped.

 

[MAB]

Oh well, if I am riding an illegal e-bike then I might as well stick and illegal (almost!) sticker on it!

Regards,

Mike.

 

[eTim]

Tim
If an electric bike meets the requirements of exemption it is classed as a bicycle and as such is not classed as a motor vehicle.

If an electric bike does not meet the requirements of expemption it would be treated as a motor vehicle, and most probably fall into the class of a low powered moped.

Thankyou, so the vast majority of us are riding low powered mopeds? Assuming there is not a sticker on the bike!

 

[MAB]

Assuming there is not a sticker on the bike!

It should be a metal plate by all accounts? I would be trying confuse the constabulary, assuming that they knew the regulations, if one got stopped!

The law as it stands is a mess, maybe some of the more eloquent members should think about an e-petition on the No, 10 downing Street website?

Regards,

Mike.

 

[flecc]

Thankyou, so the vast majority of us are riding low powered mopeds? Assuming there is not a sticker on the bike!

Correct, up to 1000 watts allowed, pedal assist but still limited to 15 mph (not 15.5 in British law). All moped regulations apply, registration, helmets insurance, number plate, driving licence etc.

The plating requirement is that the plate must be prominently shown on the vehicle and easy to read from the kerbside, rather like a car tax disc, and be permanent in nature. It's unlikely that a side of hub or crank motor plate woud meet the requirment through inaccessibility for reading, and that wouldn't carry the vehicle weight or whole bike manufacturers name anyway.

Kit bikes need to go through type approval to become either e-bikes or low powered mopeds. Take a properly plated legally powered kit bike through type approval and you could have one of the very few totally legal e-bikes!
.

 

[rog_london]

The law as it stands is a mess, maybe some of the more eloquent members should think about an e-petition on the No, 10 downing Street website?

I rather think the wisest thing to do would be to keep quiet. Any crystallization of the e-bike reguilations would probably not help us. You can bet that if too much attention gets drawn to this situation the rules won't be relaxed, but tightened, so you won't be able to build a kit bike at all without type approval, and *every* bike sold would also need type approval and would need a plate. Up go the costs yet again.

Those of you who don't drive or ride motor vehicles may not be aware that the rules on what you can and can't do are quite strict - in general, you can't make any modifications which might affect the type approval, even to the extent that you can't even use aftermarket spare parts.

Presently we get away with murder on e-bikes - I can't believe we're actually allowed to build and ride 'home brew' e-bikes with no obvious restrictions, but if they become more common that can't last. We live in litigious times, and personal freedom usually takes a back seat to regulation.

Oh, and 'off road' in this context means 'on private land where the public are not generally admitted'. It does NOT mean on any dirt tracks which any pedestrian or cyclist can use, whether they're on private land or not. I understand that you are allowed to ride your e-bike on any public pathway except for a designated 'footpath' just as long as it's a 'bicycle' and not a 'motor vehicle'.

Rog.

 

[eTim]

I rather think the wisest thing to do would be to keep quiet. Any crystallization of the e-bike reguilations would probably not help us. You can bet that if too much attention gets drawn to this situation the rules won't be relaxed, but tightened, so you won't be able to build a kit bike at all without type approval, and *every* bike sold would also need type approval and would need a plate. Up go the costs yet again.

Disagree, EU law will supersede our own laws, asking for clarification will just crystalise the laws already in place in the EU (which appear to be more relaxed eg 15.5mph )

Oh, and 'off road' in this context means 'on private land where the public are not generally admitted'. It does NOT mean on any dirt tracks which any pedestrian or cyclist can use, whether they're on private land or not. I understand that you are allowed to ride your e-bike on any public pathway just as long as it's a 'bicycle' and not a 'motor vehicle'.

Here we go with another grey area. At the point of sale or in marketing literature or salesman's patter, do you seriously think that the difference between off-road as in dirt track and byways and private land is explained adequately to the customer? So that the customer is aware that the unrestricted throttle mode can only be used on private land legally?

This last one is academic anyway as it's likely the ebike is illegal for use on the public highway because of a lack of a metal identification plate

 

[rog_london]

I don't have any argument about what a salesman may or may not say at the point of sale. Did you get out of bed on the wrong side this morning?

As to the rest of it, well, you're welcome to agree or disagree.

Rog.

 

[Vikki]

At what point was the metal plate thing added to the regulations? If it's always been there then wouldn't the manufacturers have been aware of that?

Is it a recent addition? If so it's unlikely it would work retrospectively or is that retroactively?

Like the no throttle only mode when it comes out won't affect pre-law bikes.

Just curious.

Vikki.

 

[rog_london]

At what point was the metal plate thing added to the regulations? If it's always been there then wouldn't the manufacturers have been aware of that?

Is it a recent addition? If so it's unlikely it would work retrospectively or is that retroactively?

Like the no throttle only mode when it comes out won't affect pre-law bikes.

Just curious.

Vikki.

I think it's part of the European regs rather than ours, Vikki, though I don't know for sure - I think Flecc might be able to shed more light on that.

It's unlikely any of us would be regarded as law breakers for riding e-bikes we've bought in good faith. I think there are too many of us for the police to chase as we're all in more or less exactly the same boat.

It's my opinion the authorities would go after importers, manufacturers and dealers first (probably in that order) so that bikes being sold meet whatever the final standards may be. It would be difficult and labour intensive to chase end users and I don't think we need to worry as long as we've bought 'mainstream' bikes. If you own a pre-2009 Wisper Sport and you're a bit paranoid you might want to remove the green 'derestrict' button and then you won't be advertising the fact that the bike may be just a little too fast - but I don't think I'll bother. There are one or two more about apart from the Wisper - I don't mean to single them out other than for the fact that I've got one.

Eventually all the 'dodgy' e-bikes will fall out of the system by natural decay, and that's probably the way things will be allowed to go.

PS - I've just re-read one of Flecc's earlier posts and he mentions that the plate is part of our regs, not the EU ones. I doubt it makes any significant difference though.

Rog.

 

[Vikki]

Aye, that makes sense, Rog. Thanks.

Best regards.

Vikki.

 

[flecc]

At what point was the metal plate thing added to the regulations? If it's always been there then wouldn't the manufacturers have been aware of that?

Is it a recent addition? If so it's unlikely it would work retrospectively or is that retroactively?

Like the no throttle only mode when it comes out won't affect pre-law bikes.

Just curious.

Vikki.

No, it wasn't added, it's part of the British EAPC regulations and dates back to first publication in 1983. The EU regulations do not require any plating, just as the EU do not have our silly 14 years lower age limit for riding. I know I'm an odd one out for saying it, but in my view European nations have far more sensible laws, legal administration and sentencing policies than Britain does. The sooner they send missionaries over here to civilise the British, the better.
.

 

[MAB]

I know I'm an odd one out for saying it, but in my view European nations have far more sensible laws, legal administration and sentencing policies than Britain does. The sooner they send missionaries over here to civilise the British, the better.
.

Hear, Hear! Well said that Guru!

Regards,

Mike.

 

[eddieo]

I know I'm an odd one out for saying it, but in my view European nations have far more sensible laws, legal administration and sentencing policies than Britain does. The sooner they send missionaries over here to civilise the British, the better.
.

But no throttle......my poor old knee