Dalston fatal e-bike crash rider 'going too fast' - Court Case

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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I'm afraid you can't quite say that,
Near enough though, giving me enough confidence to motorcycle for 23 years without a helmet since here were no consumer ones for a while and the law didn't require it for a while even after they did arrive. And I've never owned a cycle helmet in all of those 70 odd years. Again there weren't any for most of that time.

It's probably relevant that I've also successfully avoided other forms of accidents thoughout my life. My experience of A & E is only of taking others there and tut tutting at those in A & E on telly programs!
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gw8izr

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Nor am I, my safety record on the roads is as much due to everyone around me. But it starts with ourselves, not only by our own safe conduct but in the example we continuously set.
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Well I’m a little perplexed by that comment, on the one hand you are saying that had he been safety conscious then nothing would’ve happened (my paraphrase) yet you accept that other people influenced your own safety record.

I think we agree that what he did was wrong, but where we perhaps disagree is that I believe any one of us could get caught up in a similar event even on a perfectly legal bicycle, even when being as careful as possible. We don’t always control everything around us to enable us to stop those incidents happening, we can and should behave in a way that reduces the probability of them happening.

For that cyclist and that pedestrian to come together at that moment in time required a huge amount of “ducks to lineup“ and even minor changes would’ve changed things. He may have gone on to hit somebody else or not, we just don’t know and it is pointless speculating. All we know is someone ended up dead and in probability his actions caused it. Had he been behaving reasonably, had he been riding a normal or legal electric bicycle within his capabilities he probably wouldn’t be sat where he is today.... indeed had he had that extra slice of toast for breakfast that day, he may well not be sat where he is today.
 
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flecc

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Well I’m a little perplexed by that comment, on the one hand you are saying that had he been safety conscious then nothing would’ve happened (my paraphrase) yet you accept that other people influenced your own safety record.
It illustrates that we do in fact have much more influence on others and circumstances than most accept. I've posted at length on this previously but minds are so often set that it's often a waste of time,

However, in precis:

In my early driving years I had three accidents in cars where in each case the other party immediately admitted full liability. Any one of those would have seriously injured me if I'd been riding my motorbikes.

However, I'd been riding motorbikes for two years longer than driving cars, doing similar mileages and on identical routes with no sign of my ever being at risk of collision. That got me thinking "Why?"

It perplexed me so much that I made a specific journey to the site of the last accident and pored over every detail of what happened in relation to that scene and the conditions at the time. That enabled me to see that there was a different way I could have been driving through that section that would have made it possible to avoid the accident happening, even though the other party was entirely to blame (They'd fallen asleep at the wheel!).

It would take for ever to explain it all in detail, but my conclusion was that my vulnerability as a motorcyclist made me ensure that I didn't get into any risk situations. Remember I didn't wear any helmet at time and have never had any motorcycle accident on the roads over 54 years of riding.

Clearly my motorcycling had an influence on what others could do to me which my car driving hadn't had.

It does now though, I've never had another car accident in all the decades since, hence my claim, justified by outcomes.

We have far more power and influence on the roads than most think.
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Michael Price

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I agree with that last post - when I am riding my bike I am far more aware of what is around me.
Part of that is that I am out in the air with a totally unrescrticted view - and can hear everything as well
But also becasue I am far more vulnerable and, although I don't feel vulnerable, I think it makes me more aware.

All this in spite of having passed the Advanced Driving Test - which made a huge difference to how I drive and predict what others are going to do

However, we are not always able to avoid things others do. No amount of observation will prevent someone who is busy texting and drives into the back of your bike at traffic lights becasue they have not seen them or you - but it will make you more ablel to predict when somone at a junction is likely to pull out without looking!
 
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gw8izr

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[QUOTE="flecc, post: 543406, member:]
It does now though, I've never had another car accident in all the decades since, hence my claim, justified by outcomes.

We have far more power and influence on the roads than most think.
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[/QUOTE]

Thank you for taking the time to reply, there is nothing you wrote that I disagree with and it aligns with my driver training.

Where we disagree fundamentally is that you state that had he been as safety conscious as you, then “nothing” would’ve happened, I don’t know what might have happened.

Our behaviour and actions can certainly change the probability and severity of an incident, can one reduce the probability to zero.

I am not defending the man’s actions, and I can find nothing in my post that might make anyone think differently despite a previous response #103 If I need to reiterate that point, we have a fundamental obligation to exercise a duty of care to each other. If someone chooses to disregard that then they have to accept the consequences of their actions.
 
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Deleted member 25121

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Safer drivers drive in a way to avoid causing accidents (don't pull out at a T junction if a car is approaching) and also in a way to avoid accidents caused by others (is that car waiting at the T junction likely to pull out, has he seen me, do I need to slow down etc etc).

Of course they can still be involved in an accident for any number of reasons.

This is basis of the motor insurance no clams discounts whereby premiums are less for safer drivers.
 

flecc

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Where we disagree fundamentally is that you state that had he been as safety conscious as you, then “nothing” would’ve happened, I don’t know what might have happened.
Of course that was an exaggeration, but I argue a slight one, nowhere near as big an exaggeration as most might assume. After all, it's kept me and all others in my vicinity safe for many decades.

When I've posted about not wearing a helmet I've often groaned at the responses from those telling me of their two or three destroyed helmets following crashes. My thoughts are always, why are they having those crashes and why haven't they learnt from the first time?

Obviously among the answers is that they are accident prone, and the very widespread acceptance that there is such a thing as being accident prone supports my arguments on the influence we have.

As said it's a big subject and there are other aspects of my road use behaviour which I know from observation are uncommon but make a big contribution to the safety of myself and others. There are always arguments against, especially of the infinite "What if" variety. But nothing will budge my belief that it's possible for most to have an accident free lifetime on the roads.
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Benjahmin

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It does seem to me that the phrase, 'It was an accident' is an attempt to avoid the addmission of culpability when one feels bad after something has occured. We all find it very difficult to say, even to oneself, 'Yes, I was wrong'.
Years ago my sister in law came down stairs to find a bright red wax crayon line all the way round the walls of a newly painted living room. Her 2 1/2 year old daughter was sitting on the floor drawing with said crayons. When asked about the line she replied, 'It was a accident'.
The ability to take responsibility for ones actions marks a certain level of development and is a throughout mentality which goes to guiding the whole decision making process in life. This is, it seems, the fundamental of what Flecc is saying.
Dalston would seem to be living in a world where personal responsibility is partially if not wholly externalised. So that 'they' are always to blame.
 

Woosh

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consider that the lady made about 5-6 quick steps across the street before being hit, that's the time our e-biker had to detect, compute and brake or swerve.
Had he ridden a push bike with hydraulic brakes, he would have stood some chance. At the speed he was riding, he would need the speed of an F1 driver to avoid her.
 
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flecc

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The ability to take responsibility for ones actions marks a certain level of development and is a throughout mentality which goes to guiding the whole decision making process in life. This is, it seems, the fundamental of what Flecc is saying.
Indeed, and in any accident we are involved in, no matter how much the other party is to blame, we have always played a part. It's a fundamental of none of us being perfect.
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Deleted member 25121

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Indeed, and in any accident we are involved in, no matter how much the other party is to blame, we have always played a part. It's a fundamental of none of us being perfect.
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Indeed, and this is one of the reasons the authorities now use the term "road traffic incidents" rather than "road traffic accidents", the other being that "accidents" rarely just happen randomly.
 
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Andy McNish

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Indeed, and this is one of the reasons the authorities now use the term "road traffic incidents" rather than "road traffic accidents", the other being that "accidents" rarely just happen randomly.
This isn't always true.
Whilst defensive driving will help to avoid mitigate most accidents sometimes you can drive as defensively as you can and some idiot will still hit you.

When some knob head texting on his phone ran into the back of my father in law's car last year as he and my kids were stationery and waiting to turn right across traffic, there is literally nothing my father in law could have done.
Sometimes the fault really does 100% belong to one person.

Not in this case admittedly...
 
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This isn't always true.
Whilst defensive driving will help to avoid mitigate most accidents sometimes you can drive as defensively as you can and some idiot will still hit you.
You totally misunderstood my point.

If somebody runs into the back of you and you are stationary and in clear view it's not an accident, it's gross negligence on the other party's part.

Accident. Noun
An event that happens by chance or that is without apparent or deliberate cause.
 

RobF

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The law accepts there are times when you will be going so fast as to be unable to avoid a collision with a pedestrian.

There have been a handful of cases in which someone has tried to run across a motorway and been hit by traffic.

The drivers are not prosecuted.

Thus it's a judgment call as to whether the driver should be held legally responsible.

In this case, the prosecution is alleging the cyclist was careless - his riding was below the standard of a careful and competent driver, or he displayed a momentary lack of attention.

Part of that is the speed he was doing, although there is no technical evidence of that in terms of a speed camera reading.

What there is is a video which the jury is invited to use to make an assessment of the approximate speed, and the evidence of the other cyclist who describes the defendant passing him very quickly.

There may also be technical evidence about the bike, not to prove that it's illegal - there are no charges about that - but to show it is capable of assisting to a high speed.

The defendant is claiming he was not riding carelessly, and that he had no chance of avoiding a collision because the pedestrian darted out in front of him.

One might think that's an uphill task, but as I've outlined, not all vehicle/pedestrian collisions are deemed to be criminal.
 

Amoto65

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The bike was illegal, he ran off, Guilty end of story, if this had been a disqualified car driver doing a hit and run with a cyclist everyone would be up in arms.
 

gw8izr

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On some roads, pedestrians are not permitted to be in the carriageway, that has been successfully used as mitigation when a case has come to court, it has also been judged not in the public interest to prosecute in circumstances as above. Now In this current case it is perfectly reasonable to expect pedestrians to be in the carriageway.

If it is expected that pedestrians or indeed any other traffic could be in the carriageway then you should moderate your driving by way of speed and attention to ensure you don’t hit one of them. You should also position yourself and drive in a manner that reduces the possibility of someone else hitting you.

In my non-expert view his trying to mitigate by claiming this is an accident will fail.

I’ve had occasion to swerve or brake to avoid someone who did something that I didn’t expect, I’d guess that despite my efforts to avoid it, over the years other drivers have felt the need to question my parentage or call me a **** ( insert your own expletive here ) so I’d just be mindful that we all make mistakes.

So I suppose that leaves his character and his care for others, Why did he build or modify a bike to make it illegal and why was he riding so fast? He doesn’t appear to have offered any of the usual excuses along the lines of urgently needing to be somewhere, never usually ride that fast, made a mistake et cetera. None of which would be an acceptable excuse, he would be better trying to claim road conditions were good, visibility was good and traffic was light, apart from the fact that he can’t cos they weren’t!

He simply claims it’s an accident , of course I don’t know the man so I can only speculate and I might be wrong but I would guess riding fast made him feel smug and self-satisfied when whizzing about the roads faster than anyone else. Quite probably it boosted his ego and he probably thought he could get away with it forever . Whilst I have no evidence to prove this, judging by eBay adverts et cetera, there are probably hundreds of bikes running round the capital today with similar illegal motors and derestricted. Pretty much everyone of them could get caught up in a similar occurrence right now.



It is my guess that he will be found guilty, at which point his previous actions building or modifying his bike, his speed on the road, his behaviour and conduct at the scene and remorse will affect the sentence. He has to live with the consequences of those actions..... and assuming a custodial sentence I guess he will have time to reflect on them.


With incidents like this you just have to read what you can and try and make your own judgement on what has happened, we all might be wrong we all might be partly right, we don’t know what was on the pedestrians mind at the time and we don’t know what was on the cyclist mind at the time, we can only try our best to figure it out. Whatever now happens to him is substantially better than what happened to the pedestrian and her family.
 
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Deleted member 25121

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If the driver of an uninsured and illegally modified car killed a pedestrian when driving at 30mph in 20mph area claimed it was simply "an accident" he'd be laughed out of court........ and into jail.
 
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Amoto65

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If the driver of an uninsured and illegally modified car killed a pedestrian when driving at 30mph in 20mph area claimed it was simply "an accident" he'd be laughed out of court........ and into jail.
Well hopefully that will be the result in this case, It probably won't stop all the other clowns riding around on illegal ebikes though.
 
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EddiePJ

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I'm in no way condoning anything that the rider of the bike has done, but unless put in the same situation in respect of hitting a pedestrian no one including the rider/driver knows how you would react.

Something that I am sadly all too familiar with, and feel for all sides. :(

Capturbike.JPG

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