ebike law changes coming....

[Deleted member 4366]

Even if it came into law, which it wont, how could you test compliance? Let me guess: You take a calibrated Badass dongle, connect it according to the instructions, and if the bike's control system detects it and prevents power; that's a pass then.

It's about the same as passing a law that says all computers and mobile phones must be made in such a way that they can't get infected by viruses and malware.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

As I said earlier in the thread Col, it would not surprise me at all, although the 35Km/h speed limit would be tricky to legislate for.

I have been at our factory in Kunshan today arranging to move production to Spain. I met with our motor and controller makers who said installing a tuning detector would be a simple job adding only a few cents to the cost of a controller.... if anything at all. They also say it would be a waste of time and would take two minutes to devise an algorithm to get around it. They find this nonsense all very amusing.

I’ve today been to our Chinese frame makers who are making the Trekk Bosch frames amongst many other European brand Bosch and Shimano frames, many with the Bosch Power Tube. Yesterday I saw Gazzele stems being made at another factory. The Chinese are therefore pretty confident that Pon and Bosch, who seem to be driving this current round of idiocy will not want to stop components coming in from China as it would badly disrupt their businesses.

The Chinese are very pragmatic about the situation. They see it as the Europeans cheating the system to gain a commercial advantage and strangely they don’t seem to care that much and there is no detectable anger. Some smaller Chinese firms will certainly shut up shop but most others are in the process of moving to Europe, mainly Czech Republic, Bulgaria, Portugal, Slovenia, Romania etc Countries where wages are lower than in China. They see it as a fantastic opportunity to really hit Europe hard and start to make more upmarket city and Trekking and mountain bikes. These guys are huge and immensely wealthy, the firm I was in today make more than 100,000 bikes a month! They point our that Switzerland and Norway will continue to buy directly from China...... that’ll give customs a head ache!!

They believe Chinese centre motors may get hit due to Bosch worrying that the Bafang Max motor in particular is just as good as their offering.

When I mention anti dumping and government subsidies giving Chinese factories assistance in lowering costs to dump product in Europe, they find it hilarious! It just does not happen. They struggle to make enough European style bikes, never mind over produce to the point of dumping.

Just saying!

 

[spinellino]

Even if it came into law, which it wont, how could you test compliance? Let me guess: You take a calibrated Badass dongle, connect it according to the instructions, and if the bike's control system detects it and prevents power; that's a pass then.

It's about the same as passing a law that says all computers and mobile phones must be made in such a way that they can't get infected by viruses and malware

Would you be surprised if they passed a stupid law?

When I bought my Bosch bike the dealer offered me to fit a dongle. I asked about warranty issues and he told me that Bosch will honor the warranty: they can easily tell through diagnostic if a motor ran with a dongle, but they are aware that they would sell a lot less if they tried to stop it, so they don't.

So I think that this new regulation might be a proposal from Bosh: a little bit faster bikes in exchange of the (false) promise to stop them from going TOO fast.

 

[Danidl]

Even if it came into law, which it wont, how could you test compliance? Let me guess: You take a calibrated Badass dongle, connect it according to the instructions, and if the bike's control system detects it and prevents power; that's a pass then.

It's about the same as passing a law that says all computers and mobile phones must be made in such a way that they can't get infected by viruses and malware.

No it is much simpler than that.. the manufacturer selects a speed measuring system based on either ... In a hub motor the number of revs of the hub or.
.... in a crank drive , the number of rotations of the crank
. Provided the hub motor wheel diameter is not changed, which would be a big job, that defines the road speed. In the case of the crank, the manufacturer then specifies the other items making up the system.. the rear cassette, the chainwheels, and the diameter of the allowed back wheel. ..and certifies the entire system as compliant. If the user then changes either the chainwheel or the sprockets, they are modifying the bike and it is no longer compliant. .. logically akin to reboring the cylinders of a car, using bigger pistons and modifying the carb maybe using nitro. . .. no one cares until there is an accident and you are found with a non approved vehicle

And it is possible to design computers immune from malware. All software in ROM., .. not EPROM, Limited access to the scratch pad memory. Fixed starting address on restart into rom. .. much less flexible,

 

[Deleted member 4366]

they can easily tell through diagnostic if a motor ran with a dongle,

They can't tell through diagnostics that a dongle has been used. If somebody's bike like Eddiepj's bike were analysed, they'd probably come to the conclusion that he has a dongle fitted, since his sensor inputs would show slow wheel rotation with a lot of power used constantly. That's the same as anybody with a dongle or a heavy-weight rider. The most they can do is make a wild guess.

 

[Danidl]

Fortunately the way EU and UK laws are constructed has meant it's more convenient for the legislators to ignore the kit possibility and leave a legal void within which we legally use them.

The essence of this is as follows:

All pedelecs are excluded from motor vehicle type approval.

Manufactured pedelecs are subject to forms of pedelec type approval not available to individuals.

The only system for individual vehicle approval, SVA, is for motor vehicles, which pedelecs are not.

Basically a self-created Catch 22 for the legislators!
.

.. or the problem is currently viewed as insignificant. Were it otherwise they could legislate.

Would the sequence not be as follows.
All vehicles on public highway are regulated.
Vehicles with external mechanical power.. heat engines, electric power have particular requirements And have additional regulations
Specific motor vehicles .eg . pedelecs have an exemption from some of these. .. provided they meet specific requirements. Power, speed, and source of power and listed name plate being some of these requirements and have been certified by their manufacturers. Kit electric power units being built by home builders should also be certified, at enormous expense. , But nobody yet cares.

 

[Danidl]

They can't tell through diagnostics that a dongle has been used. If somebody's bike like Eddiepj's bike were analysed, they'd probably come to the conclusion that he has a dongle fitted, since his sensor inputs would show slow wheel rotation with a lot of power used constantly. That's the same as anybody with a dongle or a heavy-weight rider. The most they can do is make a wild guess.

It would not be a wild guess, but it might not reach the level of certainty needed for a criminal conviction.

 

[flecc]

.. or the problem is currently viewed as insignificant. Were it otherwise they could legislate.

Would the sequence not be as follows.
All vehicles on public highway are regulated.
Vehicles with external mechanical power.. heat engines, electric power have particular requirements And have additional regulations
Specific motor vehicles .eg . pedelecs have an exemption from some of these. .. provided they meet specific requirements. Power, speed, and source of power and listed name plate being some of these requirements and have been certified by their manufacturers. Kit electric power units being built by home builders should also be certified, at enormous expense. , But nobody yet cares.

This could never happen while we are/were in the EU. They find it between difficult and impossible to get agreement across their member countries, the influential Netherlands often being the awkward member, and that's probably why the law on pedelecs has so many holes.

And that's without considering the official mistakes that can occur. An amusing one that existed for 12 years here until recently meant that the legal department of the DfT and their Vehicle Inspectorate department had no option other than use two different laws. The majority of pedelecs were illegal and had to be type approved as motor vehicles by the Vehicle Inspectorate according to the legal department, and they were right according to the law they used,

But they could not be type approved, since the equally valid law used by the Inspectorate exempted them from type approval. To solve this would mean either all EU countries changing the type approval law, or the UK changing its EAPC laws, which for those 12 years the DfT were unwilling to do since it brought a power increase they didn't approve of.
.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

They can't tell through diagnostics that a dongle has been used. If somebody's bike like Eddiepj's bike were analysed, they'd probably come to the conclusion that he has a dongle fitted, since his sensor inputs would show slow wheel rotation with a lot of power used constantly. That's the same as anybody with a dongle or a heavy-weight rider. The most they can do is make a wild guess.

Strange that the Bosch guys disagree with you... We'll see who is right. I'm sure.

But this is currently a fact according to people who know more about Bosch than you or I.

"In the case of Bosch, tuning detection is already on the new 2018 Active motor"

 

[RobF]

Obviously the increase in speed limit of the assistance will require a law change.

But the changes to the motors to detect the manipulation is coming. I had this email to confirm it over the weekend.

"All ebikes sold in Europe from 2019 must have tuning detection built into the drive unit. This therefore applies to all the brands, full stop.
All motor manufacturers must have a built in detection system that restricts the operation of the motor if manipulation is detected.
Also, we as manufacturers must have the ability to prove that manipulation has been done."

You don't have to believe me, the advantage of this is that we can look back in 12 months and see if I was right.

PS, there are already a number of motors that are being used in the UK that already have this built in.

In your original post you said brands would have to stop their motors being tunable if they wanted to sell in the EU

You now seem to be saying motors will have tuning detection built into the software.

Big difference, and far more believable than the stuff in the OP about motors progressively shutting down.

Things may be being lost in translation, but the use of the word tuning is very misleading when talking about a Bosch motor.

All the dongles do is get around the cut-off speed, they don't tune the motor in any way.

Unless the guy from Bosch was referring to some super dongle of which none of us has ever heard.

 

[EddiePJ]

They can't tell through diagnostics that a dongle has been used. If somebody's bike like Eddiepj's bike were analysed, they'd probably come to the conclusion that he has a dongle fitted, since his sensor inputs would show slow wheel rotation with a lot of power used constantly. That's the same as anybody with a dongle or a heavy-weight rider. The most they can do is make a wild guess.

I have been staying well away from this thread, as I'm the first to admit that I have next to zero knowledge about the operation systems of ebikes, but from the outset of this thread, the comment that you have just made, has been foremost in my mind.
Again with zero knowledge, in my head I can see how the easiest way of telling whether a bike has had a dongle fitted, is by power consumption/drain on the battery. But with this thought, there is a major flaw, and one which you have alluded to above. Whilst a consistently high level of speed clearly requires a high level of power from the battery, so does the weight of a heavy rider, or rider that climbs steep terrain over a lengthy distance even when at low speed.

One example shown below. I'm not exactly heavy at 75kg, but do seem to use a fair bit of power when climbing, even at a low speed.

27.7 miles with an elevation gain of 8,704ft


Watts versus altitude.

Watts Versus speed

Distance versus speed

Distance versus elevation, with one battery fully depleted after the first 9.3 mile climb.

 

[anotherkiwi]

You would have to detect that power was still being provided from the motor at speeds in excess of 25 km/h which seem pretty simple to do. For that to work the LCD/controller would have to have a GPS fitted to get around dongles fiddling with speed readings. A GPS module costs between $1 and $5...

 

[Danidl]

You would have to detect that power was still being provided from the motor at speeds in excess of 25 km/h which seem pretty simple to do. For that to work the LCD/controller would have to have a GPS fitted to get around dongles fiddling with speed readings. A GPS module costs between $1 and $5...

In the context of a 2000 plus bike, the inclusion of a phone SOC containing GSM and GPS and a dedicated sms service, would allow a whole host of services. .. identifying the location of the bike if misplaced or stolen, a kill switch disabling the electronics. Maybe even a working FM radio!. This is the kind of added value,that global companies like Bosch are well placed to offer. , The owner would be supplied with a random pin code,, unknown even to the manufacturer and a public telephone number.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Today for about $50 in added equipment we could have cars that know, thanks to GPS, that you have broken the speed limit in a particular location, send that information to the authorities who could then fine you and debit directly from your bank account. Before you got home...

Lots of these things are possible but for the moment not probable. Things may change in the future.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Strange that the Bosch guys disagree with you... We'll see who is right. I'm sure.

But this is currently a fact according to people who know more about Bosch than you or I.

"In the case of Bosch, tuning detection is already on the new 2018 Active motor"

Like the TV detector vans with no equipment in then.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Like the TV detector vans with no equipment in then.

As I've said many times... don't shoot the messenger.

You're not picking holes in my policy, or my law. I'm just telling you what is being imposed on the motor brands.

 

[shemozzle999]

This could never happen while we are/were in the EU. They find it between difficult and impossible to get agreement across their member countries, the influential Netherlands often being the awkward member, and that's probably why the law on pedelecs has so many holes.

And that's without considering the official mistakes that can occur. An amusing one that existed for 12 years here until recently meant that the legal department of the DfT and their Vehicle Inspectorate department had no option other than use two different laws. The majority of pedelecs were illegal and had to be type approved as motor vehicles by the Vehicle Inspectorate according to the legal department, and they were right according to the law they used,

But they could not be type approved, since the equally valid law used by the Inspectorate exempted them from type approval. To solve this would mean either all EU countries changing the type approval law, or the UK changing its EAPC laws, which for those 12 years the DfT were unwilling to do since it brought a power increase they didn't approve of.
.

Depends on whether the German led Development of the International Whole Vehicle Type Approval system can be secured.

http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/doc/2017/wp29grb/ECE-TRANS-WP29-GRB-2017-03e.pdf

http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/doc/2017/wp29grb/GRB-65-09e.pdf

 

[Badass]

Hi everybody, I am Luigi Monaco, CEO of Badass eBikes GmbH in Germany. As one of the main producers of tuning devices for eBikes (badassBox) we would like to contribute to this discussion.

First of all, we would like to point out that eBikes have existed a long time before the hype of these last years. A big sales inhibitor back then was the boring image eBikes had, mainly being seen for elderly people. We believe we took great part in changing that image from it´s unsexy view to how eBikes are perceived nowadays. The solution apparently was sportiveness, et voilà the market took off.

In our opinion we deliver the best out of both worlds, giving the customer the choice of when to be sportive or when to use the eBike for legal every day transportation. With our new patented FEET (Field Extension and Ellimination Technology) and the new, also legally protected, snap on technology, mounting and removing the badassBox has become even easier and faster.

Badass eBikes is developing the next hardware platform, giving us the capability of encrypted wireless communication, maintaining our electrical contact free paradigm. We would willingly work together with manufacturers to solve conflict of sports vs legality. We invite producers to certify with us and sell the badassBox as an optional add on for their system.

This solution has a lot to go for. First of all, the legal system can remain as it is. Second, customers will not be irritated by new laws and all its consequences (Is my eBike fit? Does the new law apply? How will the market react? etc.). If a badassBox is mounted or not is a visible fact creating indisputable legal security. Actually, with the badassBox, then higher speed is a legal selling point.

 

[shemozzle999]

Seems KTM is referring to this:

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/news/german-cycle-industry-takes-stronger-stance-e-bike-tuning/

but that is about the new standards - not law.

https://leva-eu.com/2017/11/16/at-last-en-151942017/

Note:

With that however, it is important to note that in most European member states compliance with EN 15194:2017 is not a legal requirement, compliance is voluntary.

German led - whistle blowers apply here

https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.ziv-zweirad.de/uploads/media/PM_2017_01.03._Anti-Manipulation.pdf&prev=search

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Like Colin, they can make as much as a stand as they like against ebike tuning, but they'd have just as much luck making a stand against the tide coming in.